Question: I fear that one of the major difficulties of any teaching approach that pays close attention to each individual student (i.e. the effective approaches) is that in a 50 minute class period that gives you very little time to spend per student. How do we manage our time effectively to provide meaningful individual instruction?
I am a huge fan of block scheduling for many reasons. One of the main reasons is that you can go a lot deeper in a 90 minute block than you can in 50. 90 minutes sounds like a long time, but it flies by if things are well planned. The sad thing is, many schools who were on block scheduling are returning to 7 or 8 period days because somehow they cost less money. Sad.
Cynthia, I know for a fact that from pretending to be a ninth grader in your class that 90 mins just flies right by. It's my favorite part of the morning. As for the question, I believe tht there will be many factors that determine how long we can teach and I think this book makes some all too generous assumption as to how long our classes. But I think even with 50 mins in class we can get our students learning what they need to learn. The teacher is gonna have to keep special track of time but I've participated in discussion based lectures that did theyre job in 50 mins. That being said, I think it's a given fact that we won't have all that much time to focus just on one particular student.
Rob, I agree completely with you! It was a big transition my freshman year, but the teachers allowed for little breaks. We took 8 classes a semester at my school, so we were on block scheduling and then had "green" and "gold" days that alternated our 8 classes. One day, we had to have a "chartreuse" day for some reason and it was all 8 of our classes slammed into 1 day, and it was the worst; the teachers couldn't get much of anything done in the short space. I am a huge advocate for block scheduling! Plus, it makes the standard 1 and 15 min college class seem like a breeze.
Comment: As our students become stronger writers, they are going to respond more and more effectively to critical evaluation of their work. But also as they become stronger writers, we are likely going to be receiving more and more of their work to evaluate. It seems like eventually there just won't be enough time to properly go over everything that has been turned in.
Question: This is mostly a clarifying question. Atwell talks about teaching multiple classes. One of the biggest areas she seems to focus in is the writing workshop. It seems as though these workshops take up a fairly big part of class time. Is the information she shares in this first chapter about her teaching a writing class or is it just a basic English class that she has molded around writing?
It is a basic English class with a heavy emphasis on writing. I am having you read the chapters on how she teaches writing first, since this is a class focused on teaching writing, but then I'll have you read her chapters on teaching literature and reading next semester.
Question #2 (A more open-ended question): Atwell discusses the story of Jeff, her student who has trouble with writing and finds his own way. How would we go about encouraging the way he prepares for his writing assignments (by drawing in class) without having other students act out because "he gets to do it?"
I think the takeaway from that story was that ultimately Jeff did get the writing done. I think the best way to handle this would be to let your class be an environment where "if you want to draw a picture then that's fine, draw a picture just make sure I have 5 pages of rough draft by the end of the week."
I think the message is that kids learn in different ways. If visualizing his writing assignment and drawing it out is the best way for Jeff to pre-write, I would definitely encourage it. However, I think Jeff would need guidance on how to translate that sketch into words.
I completely agree with Chelsea. Kids learn in so many different ways! By allowing one student to demonstrate one way of learning, I think that other students who are struggling might feel more comfortable coming and asking for help & to see what they might be able to do differently. I do think that there would need to be some structured guidelines though, to make sure each student is achieving the same goals and meeting standards.
it is interesting to me that some kids do need to doodle or fidget with things, yet can still get there work done. going into the program last time, i thought i should put a stop to that if my student was "off-task". i'm glad that atwell shared her story to help me realize that that's never the best way to handle the situation.
after working with some kids this past year who need to look around & may not appear to be on task, well...they can summarize everything i just said. just because they aren't taking down notes or looking directly at you, doesn't mean that they aren't retaining the information. i learned that though some kids don't look like they are paying attention, they are. And some that appear to be listening are not. so, if that's how the child learns best, i don't think the teacher should call them out or anything. the teacher could possibly talk to the child one-on-one & see how they could allow them to do what they do in order to get their work done, but not distract others around them. therefore, guidelines like kaitlin suggested would be a must. it shouldn't be made into a big deal. it's just how they learn, but it's important that the student sees that you care & take notice.
Comment: After reading about Atwell's experiences in becoming a teacher of an evolving curriculum, I noticed that she struggled to find a balance in hands-on and hands-off approaches. She finally settled on the idea that she'll have to make exceptions when she sees fit, but all-in-all she has decided upon a hands-over phase." It seems as though we'll all go through one of these internal struggles at some point in our teaching career and it is comforting to know that even the best go through them as well.
One thing that I thought was very interesting was how much the first chapter seemed to contain references to the critical pedagogy we have been reading about in Wink and Freire. What ideas do you have that have gone against what we have been reading? What needs to be unlearned in that instance? Why?
I actually tend to agree wholeheartedly with the people like Wink and Freire. The great part about critical literacy though is that BECAUSE I agree so strongly, I should probably go back and reexamine those ideas, to figure out why i agree with them so much. Who knows, I may have misunderstood the first time.
Yeah, excellent question, Ben. What ideas DO you guys have that these various texts are pushing you to unlearn? And what ideas are so totally new to you that they are kind of mind blowing?
This is kinda my critical point of the philosophical works we've been reading. I don't feel like they always take into consideration why straight up lectures have been used so much by teachers. Granted there always will be teachers who get lazy and just want a quick escape from the classroom but at the same time there are economic issues to take into consideration, as well as time constraints, and the Standards that teachers are pressured to make sure they fulfill.
I think a major thing that these text are pushing us to unlearn is that teaching is a "for sure thing". I think the texts are trying to show us multiple ways in which teaching is always changing and a continuous learning process. I know that for a while I thought I was going to come into the program and be told, "Do this, this, or this for this. But don't ever do this." And it's not like that at all!
I really like that comment Kaitlin. Identifying the fluidity of teaching and educational theories is a great way to realize that students are fluid as well. They are always changing, so in order to meet them where you need to meet them, it requires a pedagogy that is equal as flexible and malleable, so that structures do not get in the way of effective teaching.
I completely agree that students are fluid and I'm all about bringing in flexibility to the classroom. Open class room discussions and active reading/ writing assignments have helped me learn so many things over the years. But at the same time, straight up lectures have taught me a lot of information too; I can't say that I haven't learne anything from them. And I have seen other students who just don't like to engage in class room discussions and would prefer to just get the answers told to them from a teacher. So in the end, when the texts talk about revising your teaching method to better teach the students (whether it is a classroom discussion, writing, or Q/A lecture) I'm very much on par with that. But when they say toss out everything you've learned and completely start from scratch, that I'm not so sure about. I'm sure that there is always something to take away from what a rising teacher has learned in the past.
i like the way you said that rob! And, kaitlin i agree that the texts that we've been reading have been trying to show that teaching is an ongoing process & ever changing. that's one thing i love about teaching is the fact that you never know what to expect.
One particular passage that I found compelling was the part when Atwell describes that in joining the education revolution, she adhered to a new set of orthodoxies that dictated how she taught. In the philosophy readings that we have been doing, they explore the notion of ever changing, ever evolving methods that should govern our teaching. A pedagogy that examines itself and seeks to go beyond the fact that you have adopted it, but why, and what is it causing. I find the fact that they want us to adhere to a critical pedagogy interesting since that assumes that it could be abandoned in lieu of another theory or pedagogy that looks more effective. Hence why I think Atwell talks about teaching that is based on knowledge, not on rules.
Comment: I can see why some people don't like reading Atwell, because it is a kind of slow read. But, I really like this book so far. Atwell has so much experience in the educational field and I want to soak up all of her advice! I like how calm she is when she explains things and that she basically admits teaching can be terrifying, but it will be okay. She writes: "I didn't arrive overnight" and I know that I'm going to have to keep reminding myself this over and over.
I agree whole-heartedly with your comment here. As I was reading I pictured Atwell sitting down with me over coffee and telling me all I needed to know about teaching. I can't wait to see her actually teaching!
Sometimes I think to myself, I wish I could just have the knowledge of an experienced teacher, or the abilities of a veteran public speaker, but I know that if I were granted those, while it would be awesome, the joy is in the process. Growing organically is where the knowledge comes from. The process brings the wisdom and the knowledge, the end just tells us what we have acquired.
yes, i too, am going to remember this is a process & it's about growing as a teacher, as a person, as a student, & as other things as well. i think we can all learn a lot from atwell. And, i am in awe of her calming vibe & of her organizational skills (as you'll soon read about), too.
Question: I'm sure we'll get to this, maybe even in the next chapter... A lot of what we've focused on, even in the June class, is the importance of writing and that students should be writing every day. I'm worried that in shorter class periods, not block schedule, that writing every day and discussing what the students write won't leave time for in-class reading. I guess my question is, how do we create a balance between reading and writing? Is there a way to include both on a day-to-day basis?
It has been a long time since I taught non-block class periods, but when I think about doing it, I picture spending a few weeks focusing on literature with some writing and then a few weeks focusing on writing with a bit of literature. Well, even in block scheduling I like to do that. It is hard to focus equally on both at once for me.
This was something that I thought about through the reading as well. How do you find the balance between writing and reading? I like Cynthia's way of taking time to alternate the focus in lessons between literature and writing.
I like that we get to see Atwell take the leap of faith that letting students choose topic, be treated like writers etc. even though she's worried it might lead to anarchy, because I've had these same concerns when I consider the constructivist classroom I'd like to run. She hits on how this instructs HER by saying she structures her class so that she is free to observe--that way she can base her direction on knowledge (of the students, of the challenges she faced in her writing) rather than rules. Observation seems like such a luxury in a busy classroom, but the way she weaves it into the process shows how she can perform and practice at the same time. When a teacher can be so aware and tweak things in the lesson or appeal to a particular student(s), then everyone gets the chance to evolve. This sounds so hard, but in the 7-3 video we saw Moodie do it with the extended current events video. Well, we saw how "freedom of choice does not undercut structure" like Atwell said.
Everyone worries so much (with good reason) about how to "grade all that writing" in an English class. I think the way Atwell arranges things, a lot of that happens on a daily basis in the classroom, so there isn't nearly so much to do at home.
Sabrina, I wonder too about just how much of the LA class is devoted to writing in these examples, or are they strictly writing classes? I don't know of students getting AP Lang (writing) until 11th grade-that's too late to get such thorough writing practice!
Group Discussion Question: In what ways do think that Jeff's 8th grade experience would have differed if Atwell had already "evolved" in her teaching when he was in her class?
I think that if Atwell had already developed her "writing workshop" model by the time she had Jeff as a student, she would have probably seen him develop a lot more as a writer in the classroom.
It sounds like he was already a good writer-in-training. His work could have become even greater. However, what I noticed most about Jeff is that he has not bought in to the idea of public education, meaning that he could quite possibly drop out. I feel like what Atwell had a chance to change more than anything were the ways he felt about education, knowledge, and teachers.
Favorite quote: "Freedom of choice does not undercut structure. Instead, students become accountable for learning about and using the structures available to writers to serve their purposes." (15)
Comment: Ten minute "minilectures" at the start of a middle school class = <3
Also, I feel like I could slam Atwell, Lemov, and the online videos together to create a Frankenstein-eque super teacher whose motto is "Student Choice"
I like how Atwell took a step back from her initial teacher-centered philosophy of teaching, then went to a more student-centered approach in her writing workshops after deliberation, and now considers herself a mentor who has competence and models it to her students. I love how she describes this progression in her book, too.
I also really like the idea of "minilectures"! I think then you can get any real important information to the students, and then they are able to be more "free" for the rest of class. I agree with you Leslie, I think Atwell does a wonderful job of sharing her experiences and how one thing led to another!
I am also a fan of the minilectures, and agree fully with Kaitlin and Leslie. They add a layer of getting a point across as a teacher while still allowing the student to work freely.
i feel like minilessons can be a bit daunting at first, but i do think that it warms the kids up & gives you the opportunity to share with your students what you know as a writer. it definitely helps the "community" grow & develops trust as well. but, if you aren't prepared for these, those 7 minutes can be quit long! eep!
Atwell's intro to the "Jeff" section horrifies me. I cannot work in a broken environment. My friends tell me it is a bit of a personal flaw, but I try to fix everything. I don't need everything to be perfect, I just need all of it to work. When things don't work, I get really frustrated and distracted.Trying to teach in a classroom divided by plywood, with chipped paint walls, and illegally out-of-code electrical equipment (my father is an electrician, I don;t know much, but I know enough to know when something is wrong). All of the talking about creating a safe and friendly learning environment, and this is exactly the opposite, but Atwell still manages to pull it off. I respect this woman. I want to meet her.
I know right? I love the way she described that classroom too. It was so matter-of-fact. She listed the condition and then simply told how she dealt with it. And, I agree! I want to meet her, too.
Yep, I'm terrified as well. I'm not a perfectionist but I want everyone to do well and I'm afraid it will break my heart if that one student just isn't getting it even if I'm trying my hardest. I'm looking forward to reading more of Atwell and learning how else we can be teachers who are able to understand students like Jeff. And I agree, I want to meet her as well!!
Yeah, your hearts WILL be broken, I promise you that. But what's the alternative, doing nothing at all? And it is likely your heart will swell like that of the Grinch on many an occasion, so it all evens out.
dawson, never say never or rather "cannot". :) sometimes broken environments like these need atwells & teachers like you to help bring about change for these kids.
My question is directed mostly toward Cynthia, but anyone can respond. Was there ever a moment that was so incredibly eyeopening or jarring that it made you completely change the way you taught (or learned/studied for the rest of y'all)? What was it like? How did you feel? Etc...
Comment: I really, really appreciate how honest and forthcoming Atwell is about her pedagogical journey. It's so easy to become locked into a certain way of doing things...in fact, after only three years of experience, I could feel my hackles raising when she started talking about doing a writer's workshop everyday (it's pretty similar to how she felt when the idea was first introduced, I suppose!) The fact that she is so honest with her readers about her reservations about changing the way she teaches, as well as the both the successes and failures as she implements her new programs, makes her book feel very reassuring.
I commented on her honesty too! She took us through her whole thought process as she considered her teaching style and how she got to where she is now. We talked briefly in class about keeping a journal of what worked and didn't work in our classrooms each year, and I think those "failures" are probably most important to note because those are what we learn most from.
I agree; it is difficult. It's so much nicer to avoid cognitive dissonance entirely and just focus on what's going well. It takes a lot to admit that something you've expended a lot of time, energy, and resources on has failed.
Question: I hate to repeat what some other people have already said, but I am also curious as to how a writer's workshop would work in a 50 minute ELA classroom.
I have to say that I love Nancie Atwell already. I appreciate her honesty as she tells us about her growth as a teacher. She states that she is an evolutionist, whose “definition of best will be—should be—ever changing” (p. 4). This idea goes back to Wink’s assertions of unlearning and relearning. Our ideas should change, shift, and be re-evaluated constantly in order for us to gain a better understanding of ourselves and our students.
But sometimes when I read about unlearning from Wink, I get the impression that he wants us to start all the way over instead of revise what we know and its kind of hard to forget wht you've been studying your whole life.
Rob, I think that is kind of the point. Atwell had to change here entire teaching method. I think it might seem drastic to change your stance on something completely, and Wink even says it was hard, but I think that the times in my life that I have had to completely reverse my thinking were also some of the most insightful times of my life; and the reward is always so great. So while it does concern me, I like to keep an open mind and realize that I am not always changing everything, but only certain things when I realize I could be doing other things better.
Yes, I agree, Atwell did have to change her entire teaching method and Wink does say that it is not easy. Revising is gonna be key for nearly ever new teacher but what this whole process of "unlearning" seems to come off as, to me at least, is speaking in an absolute way that says lectures, for example, have no merit to them and completely do students a dishonor. I do believe that at least the elements of a lecture are good to always have in your head if you ever need them. Unlearning something and revising something are not the same thing (at least to me they arnt). All knowledge is valuable, you just have to figure out how to apply it to the best of your abilities which does take revision. I hope this all makes sense and that I'm not confusing anyone with what I'm writing.
Also, we’ve talked about the effect that a teacher including himself or herself in the writing activities has on the classroom as a community, but Atwell’s very specific suggestions on page twenty-five seem extremely applicable to the classroom. I love how she says she “take[s] off the top of [her] head and write[s] out loud in front of them on overhead-projector transparencies” (p. 25). This lady seems to know how to get her students to trust her, and I am ready to learn from her.
Question: Atwell uses Jeff, the guy who drew a picture during writing time and then came the next day with the writing assignment fulfilled, as an example of how teachers should be aware of different students’ writing and learning processes. How much should we let students determine their own writing process? Will students use this recognition as a copout of the assignment? Are these stupid questions?
I think the turn in date and the grading of the students final product will determine if that student is using his or her time wisely be it at home or in class. Obviously, if the student is goofing off too much in class an becoming a distraction, then something should be done. While the teacher shouldn't be a ruthless dictator, they shouldn't be a push over either.
They're not stupid questions! I wonder about the writing process issue myself. I think everyone in our class can pretty much agree that there's no correct way to write. Luckily, the new CCGPS seem to reflect that way of thinking. But I still hear from parents and students whose grades have been penalized because they didn't turn in the "right" number of drafts, or they didn't prewrite in a way the teacher wanted.
Atwell is a person with a terrific amount of experiance and I really enjoyed how she explains that she didnt get to where she is today over night. I think in going to be coming back to this teachers book several times because of how well she explains one should and could stay calm in the classroom environment. I believe that students will sometimes take advantage of a teacher who doesn't have confidence in his or her abilities and when in put in a new environment and elevated to a position if power, I get very nervous and it shows. So while this was somewhat of a hard read, I do want to keep it locked in my memory as a source to rely on when I need to improve on something.
Here is my question: quick writes and fast paced poetry exercises are great things to partake in when someone has a short period for writing but I also believe that students need a lot of time to write and a lot of time to discuss their writing in order for it to improve. With a 50 min schedule, would it be best to maybe write all one day and talk about the writing the next day? How would y'all go about writing if you were under a shortened time limit? Speaking as a writer, I can say that students having unanswered questions about what they're doing wrong with writing can lead them away from writing all together.
I think a lot of that depends on the age level of the students. I've found that I have to use full days of writing sparingly - my 9th graders go crazy if I don't give them a chance to do something else during the 50 minutes. But they could maybe start a draft and then finish it outside of class and bring it in to discuss the next day?
I agree that 50 minutes is probably TOO long for most kids to write in one sitting but that having nice, big chunks of writing time is crucial. It seems like 20-30 minutes is ideal. Students generally want and need longer stretches when they are well into a piece and on a roll.
I'd like to ask Randi and Cynthia because you two may have run into this. If the students have a writers notebook that has a)very important ideas and ongoing work and b) may count for some of their grade, do you dare let them take it home? Is that the ONLY way to get them having such an intimate relationship with their work? What if the student (the population I worked with could be very forgetful/irresponsible) loses the notebook-how does this affect their grade or how does the student cobble together work for the remainder of the semester? How have you handled a loss such as this?
I loved the idea and explanation behind the "hand-over phase". I feel like a few of the writing workshop readings we have read make it seem as though giving students this freedom makes the teacher less active in the classroom, but Atwell's description of giving students the freedom for them to write while still teaching them makes both parties engaged in the writing assignments. It allows the teacher to teach and to listen at the same time.
This might be a shallow or dumb question, but would you spend the first few weeks (or week) of the year doing more assigned writing to get students used to the way the writing workshops are done, or would you just let them jump right into letting them choose what they write about?
Of all the things Atwell recommends, the one I have the hardest time with is giving students 100% choice in what type of writing they do. She doesn't do that all the time. Sometimes they are all writing a poem, for example. But for me, I almost always want everyone working on the same genre at the same time. Within that genre, I'm open to a TON of variation, but I want everyone in that genre.
I really liked the description of her writer record p. 107 where she keeps notes, milestones etc. She spells out a How To that might work when students are doing so many different genres or topics-I know I will be referring to pages 106 through 111 for ideas and systems
Question: In Atwell's discussion on Jeff, I felt particularly sensitive to the system's treatment of this student because he was "learning disabled" (p.6). He was either held back from advancing or passed after he had been abandoned.
Atwell devotes a large amount of here energies to this students despite the fact that she admits it was at the expense of the class. She also tends to rationalize her own difficulties by claiming that "[if the k-6 teachers] had taught properly, [6-12 teachers would not have a hard time]" (p.11). To what extent can we help our students during the time that we have them, and how can we insure that they get the help they need when that time is insufficient? I have not had a chance to look at chapter 4 due to my freakout last night and locking myself out of the apartment for a few hours, but I do not see her providing a satisfying answer to this question in these chapters.
At best, this class has so far only shown some strategies to provide some degree of confidence in remedial student's capabilities and enthusiasm in the writing process. Is that enough, and could we even afford to go the extra mile with so many other students in need?
Comment: I particularly enjoyed how Atwell trusted us with her fallacies when she recounted her discussions with Susan Sowers on pages 12 and 13. It brings up an important issue in the way that teachers need consider how they have students practice how to write and how to assess their writing. I feel it brings particular relevance to how we need to open up to classroom to include the student as an individual with their own intellect and agency.
So while assigning 'exercises' might be easy and one way to see if a student is engaged with a text, we still need to leave room for them to create their own topics and form their own opinions. Otherwise, our lessons run the risk of devolving into only lectures, and the essays we ask students to write about literature will only be a reflection of our own opinions about the text.
yayy! i finally have internet! thanks for y'alls patience.
so, this is my second round with Mrs. Atwell. the first time reading her book, i was like, "sayy whaaat!?!" but, this time around (having seen some of her practices put in place), i realize that i should have been more open-minded the first time. thank you, Dr. A for sending us that response from will lewis. that was a nice thing to read prior to reading chapter 1 (again). i tried to pay close attention to where atwell was coming from, i mean...there is a reason she is well thought of in the educational realm.
i loved how she starts her chapters off with a quote. the first chapter starts with, "the logic by which we teach is not always the logic by which children learn." i stopped this time to reflect on that & realize that i don't only need to be open-minded to what these respected authors, teachers, researchers, etc. have to offer me, but also be open-minded to allowing my students to help me find MY way as their teacher. as i was typing up my deep processing notes, i also came to the conclusion that i have been paying more attention to things most important when reading as opposed to just getting it read. pondering things that need clarification, taking time to note the highlights, whatever it may be is for a purpose. i have found it to be more time consuming than just taking notes on my own, but i notice a huge difference in what i am taking note of. And much like atwell, dr. alby must have a purpose for this exercise, though we may not know the "whys" of it right now. (“my students know i have reasons for any task i assign to them & that i'll explain how i believe the assignment serves their purposes – as young adults, as their parents’ children, as citizens, writers, readers, historians, & thinking human beings.” so, we just got to trust in her teachery tactics.
QUESTION: “In addition to listening hard, asking open-ended questions, & reflecting back what I hear, I give advice, make suggestions, tell them what I think is working or needs more work, show them how something might work, & collaborate with them on pieces of their writing…Most importantly, I take off the top of my head & write out loud in front of them on overhead-projector transparencies. I show them how I plan, change my mind, confront problems, weigh options, make decisions, use conventions to make my writing sound & look the way I want it to & my readers will need it to, & generally compose my life…I am tackling the tasks that are part of my everyday existence.” (page 25) How can we practice “taking off the top of our heads”, too? okayy, gooo! i can't help but laugh at this because it's a funny way to describe it.
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ReplyDeleteQuestion: I fear that one of the major difficulties of any teaching approach that pays close attention to each individual student (i.e. the effective approaches) is that in a 50 minute class period that gives you very little time to spend per student. How do we manage our time effectively to provide meaningful individual instruction?
ReplyDeleteI am a huge fan of block scheduling for many reasons. One of the main reasons is that you can go a lot deeper in a 90 minute block than you can in 50. 90 minutes sounds like a long time, but it flies by if things are well planned. The sad thing is, many schools who were on block scheduling are returning to 7 or 8 period days because somehow they cost less money. Sad.
DeleteCynthia, I know for a fact that from pretending to be a ninth grader in your class that 90 mins just flies right by. It's my favorite part of the morning. As for the question, I believe tht there will be many factors that determine how long we can teach and I think this book makes some all too generous assumption as to how long our classes. But I think even with 50 mins in class we can get our students learning what they need to learn. The teacher is gonna have to keep special track of time but I've participated in discussion based lectures that did theyre job in 50 mins. That being said, I think it's a given fact that we won't have all that much time to focus just on one particular student.
DeleteRob, I agree completely with you! It was a big transition my freshman year, but the teachers allowed for little breaks. We took 8 classes a semester at my school, so we were on block scheduling and then had "green" and "gold" days that alternated our 8 classes. One day, we had to have a "chartreuse" day for some reason and it was all 8 of our classes slammed into 1 day, and it was the worst; the teachers couldn't get much of anything done in the short space. I am a huge advocate for block scheduling! Plus, it makes the standard 1 and 15 min college class seem like a breeze.
DeleteComment: As our students become stronger writers, they are going to respond more and more effectively to critical evaluation of their work. But also as they become stronger writers, we are likely going to be receiving more and more of their work to evaluate. It seems like eventually there just won't be enough time to properly go over everything that has been turned in.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: This is mostly a clarifying question. Atwell talks about teaching multiple classes. One of the biggest areas she seems to focus in is the writing workshop. It seems as though these workshops take up a fairly big part of class time. Is the information she shares in this first chapter about her teaching a writing class or is it just a basic English class that she has molded around writing?
ReplyDeleteCynthia, you should answer this.
DeleteIt is a basic English class with a heavy emphasis on writing. I am having you read the chapters on how she teaches writing first, since this is a class focused on teaching writing, but then I'll have you read her chapters on teaching literature and reading next semester.
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DeleteQuestion #2 (A more open-ended question):
ReplyDeleteAtwell discusses the story of Jeff, her student who has trouble with writing and finds his own way. How would we go about encouraging the way he prepares for his writing assignments (by drawing in class) without having other students act out because "he gets to do it?"
I think the takeaway from that story was that ultimately Jeff did get the writing done. I think the best way to handle this would be to let your class be an environment where "if you want to draw a picture then that's fine, draw a picture just make sure I have 5 pages of rough draft by the end of the week."
DeleteI think the message is that kids learn in different ways. If visualizing his writing assignment and drawing it out is the best way for Jeff to pre-write, I would definitely encourage it. However, I think Jeff would need guidance on how to translate that sketch into words.
DeleteI completely agree with Chelsea. Kids learn in so many different ways! By allowing one student to demonstrate one way of learning, I think that other students who are struggling might feel more comfortable coming and asking for help & to see what they might be able to do differently. I do think that there would need to be some structured guidelines though, to make sure each student is achieving the same goals and meeting standards.
Deleteyeahh, chels!
Deleteit is interesting to me that some kids do need to doodle or fidget with things, yet can still get there work done. going into the program last time, i thought i should put a stop to that if my student was "off-task". i'm glad that atwell shared her story to help me realize that that's never the best way to handle the situation.
after working with some kids this past year who need to look around & may not appear to be on task, well...they can summarize everything i just said. just because they aren't taking down notes or looking directly at you, doesn't mean that they aren't retaining the information. i learned that though some kids don't look like they are paying attention, they are. And some that appear to be listening are not. so, if that's how the child learns best, i don't think the teacher should call them out or anything. the teacher could possibly talk to the child one-on-one & see how they could allow them to do what they do in order to get their work done, but not distract others around them. therefore, guidelines like kaitlin suggested would be a must. it shouldn't be made into a big deal. it's just how they learn, but it's important that the student sees that you care & take notice.
Comment: After reading about Atwell's experiences in becoming a teacher of an evolving curriculum, I noticed that she struggled to find a balance in hands-on and hands-off approaches. She finally settled on the idea that she'll have to make exceptions when she sees fit, but all-in-all she has decided upon a hands-over phase." It seems as though we'll all go through one of these internal struggles at some point in our teaching career and it is comforting to know that even the best go through them as well.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I thought was very interesting was how much the first chapter seemed to contain references to the critical pedagogy we have been reading about in Wink and Freire. What ideas do you have that have gone against what we have been reading? What needs to be unlearned in that instance? Why?
ReplyDeleteI actually tend to agree wholeheartedly with the people like Wink and Freire. The great part about critical literacy though is that BECAUSE I agree so strongly, I should probably go back and reexamine those ideas, to figure out why i agree with them so much. Who knows, I may have misunderstood the first time.
DeleteYeah, excellent question, Ben. What ideas DO you guys have that these various texts are pushing you to unlearn? And what ideas are so totally new to you that they are kind of mind blowing?
DeleteThis is kinda my critical point of the philosophical works we've been reading. I don't feel like they always take into consideration why straight up lectures have been used so much by teachers. Granted there always will be teachers who get lazy and just want a quick escape from the classroom but at the same time there are economic issues to take into consideration, as well as time constraints, and the Standards that teachers are pressured to make sure they fulfill.
DeleteI think a major thing that these text are pushing us to unlearn is that teaching is a "for sure thing". I think the texts are trying to show us multiple ways in which teaching is always changing and a continuous learning process. I know that for a while I thought I was going to come into the program and be told, "Do this, this, or this for this. But don't ever do this." And it's not like that at all!
DeleteI really like that comment Kaitlin. Identifying the fluidity of teaching and educational theories is a great way to realize that students are fluid as well. They are always changing, so in order to meet them where you need to meet them, it requires a pedagogy that is equal as flexible and malleable, so that structures do not get in the way of effective teaching.
DeleteI completely agree that students are fluid and I'm all about bringing in flexibility to the classroom. Open class room discussions and active reading/ writing assignments have helped me learn so many things over the years. But at the same time, straight up lectures have taught me a lot of information too; I can't say that I haven't learne anything from them. And I have seen other students who just don't like to engage in class room discussions and would prefer to just get the answers told to them from a teacher. So in the end, when the texts talk about revising your teaching method to better teach the students (whether it is a classroom discussion, writing, or Q/A lecture) I'm very much on par with that. But when they say toss out everything you've learned and completely start from scratch, that I'm not so sure about. I'm sure that there is always something to take away from what a rising teacher has learned in the past.
Deletei like the way you said that rob! And, kaitlin i agree that the texts that we've been reading have been trying to show that teaching is an ongoing process & ever changing. that's one thing i love about teaching is the fact that you never know what to expect.
DeleteOne particular passage that I found compelling was the part when Atwell describes that in joining the education revolution, she adhered to a new set of orthodoxies that dictated how she taught. In the philosophy readings that we have been doing, they explore the notion of ever changing, ever evolving methods that should govern our teaching. A pedagogy that examines itself and seeks to go beyond the fact that you have adopted it, but why, and what is it causing. I find the fact that they want us to adhere to a critical pedagogy interesting since that assumes that it could be abandoned in lieu of another theory or pedagogy that looks more effective. Hence why I think Atwell talks about teaching that is based on knowledge, not on rules.
ReplyDeleteComment: I can see why some people don't like reading Atwell, because it is a kind of slow read. But, I really like this book so far. Atwell has so much experience in the educational field and I want to soak up all of her advice! I like how calm she is when she explains things and that she basically admits teaching can be terrifying, but it will be okay. She writes: "I didn't arrive overnight" and I know that I'm going to have to keep reminding myself this over and over.
ReplyDeleteWait until you see videos of her teaching; she is the very essence of calm!
DeleteEeek! Then I can't wait to see that!
DeleteI agree whole-heartedly with your comment here. As I was reading I pictured Atwell sitting down with me over coffee and telling me all I needed to know about teaching. I can't wait to see her actually teaching!
DeleteIt's unlike any textbook I've ever read! It's almost like a narrative at first. Interested to read more
DeleteSometimes I think to myself, I wish I could just have the knowledge of an experienced teacher, or the abilities of a veteran public speaker, but I know that if I were granted those, while it would be awesome, the joy is in the process. Growing organically is where the knowledge comes from. The process brings the wisdom and the knowledge, the end just tells us what we have acquired.
Deleteyes, i too, am going to remember this is a process & it's about growing as a teacher, as a person, as a student, & as other things as well. i think we can all learn a lot from atwell. And, i am in awe of her calming vibe & of her organizational skills (as you'll soon read about), too.
DeleteAND, very well put ben!
Question: I'm sure we'll get to this, maybe even in the next chapter... A lot of what we've focused on, even in the June class, is the importance of writing and that students should be writing every day. I'm worried that in shorter class periods, not block schedule, that writing every day and discussing what the students write won't leave time for in-class reading. I guess my question is, how do we create a balance between reading and writing? Is there a way to include both on a day-to-day basis?
ReplyDeleteIt has been a long time since I taught non-block class periods, but when I think about doing it, I picture spending a few weeks focusing on literature with some writing and then a few weeks focusing on writing with a bit of literature. Well, even in block scheduling I like to do that. It is hard to focus equally on both at once for me.
DeleteThis was something that I thought about through the reading as well. How do you find the balance between writing and reading? I like Cynthia's way of taking time to alternate the focus in lessons between literature and writing.
DeleteI like that we get to see Atwell take the leap of faith that letting students choose topic, be treated like writers etc. even though she's worried it might lead to anarchy, because I've had these same concerns when I consider the constructivist classroom I'd like to run. She hits on how this instructs HER by saying she structures her class so that she is free to observe--that way she can base her direction on knowledge (of the students, of the challenges she faced in her writing) rather than rules. Observation seems like such a luxury in a busy classroom, but the way she weaves it into the process shows how she can perform and practice at the same time. When a teacher can be so aware and tweak things in the lesson or appeal to a particular student(s), then everyone gets the chance to evolve. This sounds so hard, but in the 7-3 video we saw Moodie do it with the extended current events video. Well, we saw how "freedom of choice does not undercut structure" like Atwell said.
ReplyDeleteEveryone worries so much (with good reason) about how to "grade all that writing" in an English class. I think the way Atwell arranges things, a lot of that happens on a daily basis in the classroom, so there isn't nearly so much to do at home.
DeleteSabrina, I wonder too about just how much of the LA class is devoted to writing in these examples, or are they strictly writing classes? I don't know of students getting AP Lang (writing) until 11th grade-that's too late to get such thorough writing practice!
ReplyDeleteGroup Discussion Question: In what ways do think that Jeff's 8th grade experience would have differed if Atwell had already "evolved" in her teaching when he was in her class?
ReplyDeleteI think that if Atwell had already developed her "writing workshop" model by the time she had Jeff as a student, she would have probably seen him develop a lot more as a writer in the classroom.
DeleteIt sounds like he was already a good writer-in-training. His work could have become even greater. However, what I noticed most about Jeff is that he has not bought in to the idea of public education, meaning that he could quite possibly drop out. I feel like what Atwell had a chance to change more than anything were the ways he felt about education, knowledge, and teachers.
DeleteFavorite quote: "Freedom of choice does not undercut structure. Instead, students become accountable for learning about and using the structures available to writers to serve their purposes." (15)
ReplyDeleteComment: Ten minute "minilectures" at the start of a middle school class = <3
Also, I feel like I could slam Atwell, Lemov, and the online videos together to create a Frankenstein-eque super teacher whose motto is "Student Choice"
DeleteYou are going to see me do an Atwellian mini-lecture on Monday!
DeleteI like how Atwell took a step back from her initial teacher-centered philosophy of teaching, then went to a more student-centered approach in her writing workshops after deliberation, and now considers herself a mentor who has competence and models it to her students. I love how she describes this progression in her book, too.
DeleteI also really like the idea of "minilectures"! I think then you can get any real important information to the students, and then they are able to be more "free" for the rest of class.
DeleteI agree with you Leslie, I think Atwell does a wonderful job of sharing her experiences and how one thing led to another!
I am also a fan of the minilectures, and agree fully with Kaitlin and Leslie. They add a layer of getting a point across as a teacher while still allowing the student to work freely.
Deletei feel like minilessons can be a bit daunting at first, but i do think that it warms the kids up & gives you the opportunity to share with your students what you know as a writer. it definitely helps the "community" grow & develops trust as well. but, if you aren't prepared for these, those 7 minutes can be quit long! eep!
DeleteAtwell's intro to the "Jeff" section horrifies me. I cannot work in a broken environment. My friends tell me it is a bit of a personal flaw, but I try to fix everything. I don't need everything to be perfect, I just need all of it to work. When things don't work, I get really frustrated and distracted.Trying to teach in a classroom divided by plywood, with chipped paint walls, and illegally out-of-code electrical equipment (my father is an electrician, I don;t know much, but I know enough to know when something is wrong). All of the talking about creating a safe and friendly learning environment, and this is exactly the opposite, but Atwell still manages to pull it off. I respect this woman. I want to meet her.
ReplyDeleteI know right? I love the way she described that classroom too. It was so matter-of-fact. She listed the condition and then simply told how she dealt with it. And, I agree! I want to meet her, too.
DeleteYep, I'm terrified as well. I'm not a perfectionist but I want everyone to do well and I'm afraid it will break my heart if that one student just isn't getting it even if I'm trying my hardest. I'm looking forward to reading more of Atwell and learning how else we can be teachers who are able to understand students like Jeff. And I agree, I want to meet her as well!!
DeleteP.S.- I wish there was a "like" button, cause I simply want to like some comments. Like Leslie's!
DeleteYeah, your hearts WILL be broken, I promise you that. But what's the alternative, doing nothing at all? And it is likely your heart will swell like that of the Grinch on many an occasion, so it all evens out.
Deletedawson, never say never or rather "cannot". :) sometimes broken environments like these need atwells & teachers like you to help bring about change for these kids.
DeleteMy question is directed mostly toward Cynthia, but anyone can respond. Was there ever a moment that was so incredibly eyeopening or jarring that it made you completely change the way you taught (or learned/studied for the rest of y'all)? What was it like? How did you feel? Etc...
ReplyDeleteComment: I really, really appreciate how honest and forthcoming Atwell is about her pedagogical journey. It's so easy to become locked into a certain way of doing things...in fact, after only three years of experience, I could feel my hackles raising when she started talking about doing a writer's workshop everyday (it's pretty similar to how she felt when the idea was first introduced, I suppose!) The fact that she is so honest with her readers about her reservations about changing the way she teaches, as well as the both the successes and failures as she implements her new programs, makes her book feel very reassuring.
ReplyDeleteI commented on her honesty too! She took us through her whole thought process as she considered her teaching style and how she got to where she is now. We talked briefly in class about keeping a journal of what worked and didn't work in our classrooms each year, and I think those "failures" are probably most important to note because those are what we learn most from.
DeleteI noticed her honesty, too! I think that attitude is so important to carry into the classroom with you.
DeleteOne thing that is hard for me is being honest about what I am going through, which as Atwell states, is very important, especially a teacher.
DeleteI agree; it is difficult. It's so much nicer to avoid cognitive dissonance entirely and just focus on what's going well. It takes a lot to admit that something you've expended a lot of time, energy, and resources on has failed.
DeleteQuestion: I hate to repeat what some other people have already said, but I am also curious as to how a writer's workshop would work in a 50 minute ELA classroom.
ReplyDeleteI have to say that I love Nancie Atwell already. I appreciate her honesty as she tells us about her growth as a teacher. She states that she is an evolutionist, whose “definition of best will be—should be—ever changing” (p. 4). This idea goes back to Wink’s assertions of unlearning and relearning. Our ideas should change, shift, and be re-evaluated constantly in order for us to gain a better understanding of ourselves and our students.
ReplyDeleteBut sometimes when I read about unlearning from Wink, I get the impression that he wants us to start all the way over instead of revise what we know and its kind of hard to forget wht you've been studying your whole life.
DeleteRob, I think that is kind of the point. Atwell had to change here entire teaching method. I think it might seem drastic to change your stance on something completely, and Wink even says it was hard, but I think that the times in my life that I have had to completely reverse my thinking were also some of the most insightful times of my life; and the reward is always so great. So while it does concern me, I like to keep an open mind and realize that I am not always changing everything, but only certain things when I realize I could be doing other things better.
DeleteYes, I agree, Atwell did have to change her entire teaching method and Wink does say that it is not easy. Revising is gonna be key for nearly ever new teacher but what this whole process of "unlearning" seems to come off as, to me at least, is speaking in an absolute way that says lectures, for example, have no merit to them and completely do students a dishonor. I do believe that at least the elements of a lecture are good to always have in your head if you ever need them. Unlearning something and revising something are not the same thing (at least to me they arnt). All knowledge is valuable, you just have to figure out how to apply it to the best of your abilities which does take revision. I hope this all makes sense and that I'm not confusing anyone with what I'm writing.
DeleteAlso, we’ve talked about the effect that a teacher including himself or herself in the writing activities has on the classroom as a community, but Atwell’s very specific suggestions on page twenty-five seem extremely applicable to the classroom. I love how she says she “take[s] off the top of [her] head and write[s] out loud in front of them on overhead-projector transparencies” (p. 25). This lady seems to know how to get her students to trust her, and I am ready to learn from her.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Atwell uses Jeff, the guy who drew a picture during writing time and then came the next day with the writing assignment fulfilled, as an example of how teachers should be aware of different students’ writing and learning processes. How much should we let students determine their own writing process? Will students use this recognition as a copout of the assignment? Are these stupid questions?
I think the turn in date and the grading of the students final product will determine if that student is using his or her time wisely be it at home or in class. Obviously, if the student is goofing off too much in class an becoming a distraction, then something should be done. While the teacher shouldn't be a ruthless dictator, they shouldn't be a push over either.
DeleteThey're not stupid questions! I wonder about the writing process issue myself. I think everyone in our class can pretty much agree that there's no correct way to write. Luckily, the new CCGPS seem to reflect that way of thinking. But I still hear from parents and students whose grades have been penalized because they didn't turn in the "right" number of drafts, or they didn't prewrite in a way the teacher wanted.
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ReplyDeleteAtwell is a person with a terrific amount of experiance and I really enjoyed how she explains that she didnt get to where she is today over night. I think in going to be coming back to this teachers book several times because of how well she explains one should and could stay calm in the classroom environment. I believe that students will sometimes take advantage of a teacher who doesn't have confidence in his or her abilities and when in put in a new environment and elevated to a position if power, I get very nervous and it shows. So while this was somewhat of a hard read, I do want to keep it locked in my memory as a source to rely on when I need to improve on something.
ReplyDeleteHere is my question: quick writes and fast paced poetry exercises are great things to partake in when someone has a short period for writing but I also believe that students need a lot of time to write and a lot of time to discuss their writing in order for it to improve. With a 50 min schedule, would it be best to maybe write all one day and talk about the writing the next day? How would y'all go about writing if you were under a shortened time limit? Speaking as a writer, I can say that students having unanswered questions about what they're doing wrong with writing can lead them away from writing all together.
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of that depends on the age level of the students. I've found that I have to use full days of writing sparingly - my 9th graders go crazy if I don't give them a chance to do something else during the 50 minutes. But they could maybe start a draft and then finish it outside of class and bring it in to discuss the next day?
DeleteI agree that 50 minutes is probably TOO long for most kids to write in one sitting but that having nice, big chunks of writing time is crucial. It seems like 20-30 minutes is ideal. Students generally want and need longer stretches when they are well into a piece and on a roll.
DeleteI'd like to ask Randi and Cynthia because you two may have run into this. If the students have a writers notebook that has a)very important ideas and ongoing work and b) may count for some of their grade, do you dare let them take it home? Is that the ONLY way to get them having such an intimate relationship with their work? What if the student (the population I worked with could be very forgetful/irresponsible) loses the notebook-how does this affect their grade or how does the student cobble together work for the remainder of the semester? How have you handled a loss such as this?
DeleteI loved the idea and explanation behind the "hand-over phase". I feel like a few of the writing workshop readings we have read make it seem as though giving students this freedom makes the teacher less active in the classroom, but Atwell's description of giving students the freedom for them to write while still teaching them makes both parties engaged in the writing assignments. It allows the teacher to teach and to listen at the same time.
ReplyDeleteThis might be a shallow or dumb question, but would you spend the first few weeks (or week) of the year doing more assigned writing to get students used to the way the writing workshops are done, or would you just let them jump right into letting them choose what they write about?
ReplyDeleteOf all the things Atwell recommends, the one I have the hardest time with is giving students 100% choice in what type of writing they do. She doesn't do that all the time. Sometimes they are all writing a poem, for example. But for me, I almost always want everyone working on the same genre at the same time. Within that genre, I'm open to a TON of variation, but I want everyone in that genre.
ReplyDeleteI really liked the description of her writer record p. 107 where she keeps notes, milestones etc. She spells out a How To that might work when students are doing so many different genres or topics-I know I will be referring to pages 106 through 111 for ideas and systems
DeleteQuestion: In Atwell's discussion on Jeff, I felt particularly sensitive to the system's treatment of this student because he was "learning disabled" (p.6). He was either held back from advancing or passed after he had been abandoned.
ReplyDeleteAtwell devotes a large amount of here energies to this students despite the fact that she admits it was at the expense of the class. She also tends to rationalize her own difficulties by claiming that "[if the k-6 teachers] had taught properly, [6-12 teachers would not have a hard time]" (p.11). To what extent can we help our students during the time that we have them, and how can we insure that they get the help they need when that time is insufficient? I have not had a chance to look at chapter 4 due to my freakout last night and locking myself out of the apartment for a few hours, but I do not see her providing a satisfying answer to this question in these chapters.
At best, this class has so far only shown some strategies to provide some degree of confidence in remedial student's capabilities and enthusiasm in the writing process. Is that enough, and could we even afford to go the extra mile with so many other students in need?
Comment: I particularly enjoyed how Atwell trusted us with her fallacies when she recounted her discussions with Susan Sowers on pages 12 and 13. It brings up an important issue in the way that teachers need consider how they have students practice how to write and how to assess their writing. I feel it brings particular relevance to how we need to open up to classroom to include the student as an individual with their own intellect and agency.
ReplyDeleteSo while assigning 'exercises' might be easy and one way to see if a student is engaged with a text, we still need to leave room for them to create their own topics and form their own opinions. Otherwise, our lessons run the risk of devolving into only lectures, and the essays we ask students to write about literature will only be a reflection of our own opinions about the text.
yayy! i finally have internet! thanks for y'alls patience.
ReplyDeleteso, this is my second round with Mrs. Atwell. the first time reading her book, i was like, "sayy whaaat!?!" but, this time around (having seen some of her practices put in place), i realize that i should have been more open-minded the first time. thank you, Dr. A for sending us that response from will lewis. that was a nice thing to read prior to reading chapter 1 (again). i tried to pay close attention to where atwell was coming from, i mean...there is a reason she is well thought of in the educational realm.
i loved how she starts her chapters off with a quote. the first chapter starts with, "the logic by which we teach is not always the logic by which children learn." i stopped this time to reflect on that & realize that i don't only need to be open-minded to what these respected authors, teachers, researchers, etc. have to offer me, but also be open-minded to allowing my students to help me find MY way as their teacher. as i was typing up my deep processing notes, i also came to the conclusion that i have been paying more attention to things most important when reading as opposed to just getting it read. pondering things that need clarification, taking time to note the highlights, whatever it may be is for a purpose. i have found it to be more time consuming than just taking notes on my own, but i notice a huge difference in what i am taking note of. And much like atwell, dr. alby must have a purpose for this exercise, though we may not know the "whys" of it right now. (“my students know i have reasons for any task i assign to them & that i'll explain how i believe the assignment serves their purposes – as young adults, as their parents’ children, as citizens, writers, readers, historians, & thinking human beings.” so, we just got to trust in her teachery tactics.
QUESTION: “In addition to listening hard, asking open-ended questions, & reflecting back what I hear, I give advice, make suggestions, tell them what I think is working or needs more work, show them how something might work, & collaborate with them on pieces of their writing…Most importantly, I take off the top of my head & write out loud in front of them on overhead-projector transparencies. I show them how I plan, change my mind, confront problems, weigh options, make decisions, use conventions to make my writing sound & look the way I want it to & my readers will need it to, & generally compose my life…I am tackling the tasks that are part of my everyday existence.” (page 25) How can we practice “taking off the top of our heads”, too? okayy, gooo! i can't help but laugh at this because it's a funny way to describe it.
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