Question: (Refer to p. 301 if needed) What are some pros and cons that come to mind with the portfolio evaluation? Is this something you would like to bring into your classroom? Why or why not?
Comment: I love the major role self-evaluation plays in Atwell's classroom. I think that successful student self-evaluation depends on consistency and reoccurrence, as well as meaningful questions and guidance from teachers.
Sorry, I forgot to type this quote: "Kids left out a lot when I didn't provide a prompt that help them retrieve experiences and discover their meanings" (310). Again we see that a purposeful and well-written assessment is so very important for student learning.
Question: Atwell discusses how she would assign grades in systems that require them; she says she would assign an A, B, C, or D based on her determination of whether the student had achieved his or her goals that term. That kind of grading doesn't really relate to what I see in schools today though, with the advent of programs like PowerSchool. I know at my school, we're expected to update the grade book by the end of the day every Friday afternoon with at least one set of new grades. The principal conducts periodic audits and calls out teachers who haven't been updating! So I suppose my question is, how do you think Atwell would approach THAT kind of environment, in which at least one new graded assignment needs to be added a week?
Possibly 1-2 mini-lessons a week could have an exercise that earns a grade, even if it is for degree of completion, not for accuracy (less time on teacher's part). She might also use the writing record and grade for her feedback that got corrected by student, amount of fresh writing, or even evidence a "birthed" idea was making it through several early steps of writing. Ugh-this presents such a dilemma, though, because all of these things sound tricky to measure. Atwell should write a book about hybridizing her methods with "what we see in schools today". Something tells me that task would make her skin crawl, though.
Wow. That's a lot of grading! I guess my question would be -- don't you want meaningful things in the gradebook, not just effort grades? That must be a lot of pressure to get that extra assignment in every week. Not only are you coming up with lesson plans, preparing each night, & grading other work, but you're having to come up with another assignment to have graded by the end of the week, too? Busy, busy!
Atwell's system seems to based off of creative writing and not research papers or essays. I don't even think we've ever seen her teach the scholarly side of things. So I agree with Randi that this style of grading Atwell loves would probably not stand in most public schools.
Well, unfortunately, yes. A lot of students and parents DO what a lot of effort grades in the gradebook. They're focused on the college they want their kid to attend, and a lot of grades means grade inflation. I've never heard this, but I have a lot of coworkers who have been told "_____ doesn't get B's." Another scenario I'd be curious to see Atwell take on - it'd be fascinating to watch!
Comment: I don't always consider how valuable self-evaluation can be for students. I love the questions she asks them every trimester...I'll probably end up stealing them for future use! It seems like she's struck a good balance between course specific questions and questions that encourage the students to reflect upon where they are as readers and writers.
Agreed! When I was in high school, our self-evaluation prompts were so 1) rare and 2) meaningless that nobody took them seriously. I think self-evaluation is only successful if it is constant and meaningful.
I really think the idea of meaningful is the most important. Often times, I feel like, self-evaluations are boring and not-productive, either because they don't help us or they aren't used properly. A meaningful assessment means it will most likely be used properly and with great effect.
Seriously. I wonder if half my teachers even read our evals? I think we did a lot of group evals when I was in middle & high school. I always thought that they were vague & didn't really help me to improve on anything. So, providing students with meaningful ones is essential, otherwise, why even do them?
I am glad Atwell spells out so clearly how her school makes this valuation method work, because it is overwhelming to try and imagine it with no reference-it seems very foreign to what I've seen in schools. I do believe that teaching a student to self-evaluate without angst and excuses is one of the most valuable things you can do. I see it work for their school because they give the students the language to critically analyze, and they have a specific yet fluid structure to their evaluations. As for my favorite take-aways from this chapter, I like students stapling their goals card to the pocket of their folder, and I like (p. 322) the graded criteria: demonstrate growth in topic selection, level of involvement, degree of effort, etc. (the whole list)
Question: After reading all of these chapters about grading, my mind is officially twisted in knots. I guess my question is, do you think grading will be something that we have to figure out ourselves when we get into our actual job? (Since their seems to be certain rules for certain schools...)
I think that grading will depend heavily on the school you're at. Right now, I am just soaking up all the different grading methods and learning as much as I can. Then when I get a job, I can mold my method with the school's policies in mind.
I agree with Chelsea here. After our visits from some of those teachers, I'm not sure if we have a huge range of choices when it comes to grading, but if our philosophy is sound, then our grading should still be an accurate reflection of student achievement and progress.
Yeah, I think it will definitely come down to the school. Ultimately, grading is going to exist for a while probably, so I am trying to figure out ways to implement what i want to do while figuring out how to come up with a grade based off of those methods. I want my expectations to meet the grades, otherwise I am lying to my students.
I am anxious to get in the classroom & see how my host teacher grades. I'm glad that we are looking into this now so we can get a feel of where we stand. Once we see grading put into action, we can modify how we'd go about it & think of ways to come up with a good compromise if the school we get hired at has very strict rules & policies on grading. Thank goodness we're being introduced to all these approaches to grading! eep!
Comment: I really loved Atwell's self-assessment sheets. I never really thought about her assessments being so in-depth. But, they truly seem to delve deep into course and upon reading, you can see if the student has an understanding or if they don't.
I found myself thoroughly enjoying the questionnaires that she handed to her students. That is on thing that I really want to do, not only so students can see for themselves, but also for me, as a teacher, to see where they are and where they think they are; the latter being, I believe, more important, because that is where you will need to meet them to get order to get them to where you think they should and can go during your class.
There is a quote on pg. 300 that states, "Until we realize that the student is the best evaluator of his or her own learning, we will never know what our students really know or are able to do." That connects to something that Atwell herself mentions near the ned of the chapter, or in the middle (no pun intended) where she talks about the importance of nurturing and encouraging students through the writing process. That is something we have been learning in class, as well. Now for the question: How do we go about encouraging students during the process, while still making it imperative that growth is expected?
I think Atwell's point about reminding students of their progress and their goals is imperative for the self-evaluation process. She said she had them staple notecards with their goals written on them to their folders. Having a set and visible goal that the students themselves set seems to be a pretty big encourager.
Question: On page 301, Atwell discusses the use of portfolios in evaluating a student's work over the course of a school year. She claims that it is an efficient way to keep track of a student's progress and helps shape the student for the real world where he or she will have to keep organized. While I like the idea of using a portfolio, I'm a little bit cautious when it comes to maintaining one in school. In college, our professor went about trying to have us write for our portfolio and it made the work seem more like a chore than a learning experience. Also, it was a pain for our professor to keep track of all the work that was coming in. Then again, maybe a teacher who uses portfolios frequently and has the students work come in more smoothly can create an effective evaluation of student work. What do ya'll think about portfolios?
Statement: I agree 100% with Atwell's method of grading a prose or poetry piece by a student. If we grade them off of quality, then each beginning writer will fail and learn nothing. Instead, we must grade our students based off how much hard work they are putting into the stories and how much progress they are making based off when they first started writing in the class.
I love the idea of grading based of off progress and effort. I had a teacher in college that did that, and it was a great motivating factor, because we knew that he believed in us and expected us to do our best, but he also took in how much we had grown as individuals during the course.
Without the pressure of "I have to make a good grade", I think students can really focus on producing a great piece. I wished that my teachers had looked at my progression rather than just marking my piece up. A grade doesn't define who you are as a student. So, I like that Atwell bases her decisions on progress.
Leslie, I think it could apply to other writing besides the creative kind but I wouldn't be as lenient with just basing my grades off hard work. Research papers have an argument that the author needs to uphold and, in my opinion, scholarly essays are easier to grasp than creative writing is. But that is just my opinion.
I love how much self-evaluation is brought into Atwell's classroom. It wasn't something I had thought to specifically focus on in terms of figuring out how the students are progressing through their own eyes. I also really liked how much emphasis Atwell puts on students setting goals in her class, especially the quote that says "goals aren't carved in stone, and if something happens and they require alteration, the writer and I alter them." I feel like sometimes we set goals for students and don't take into account that interests might change and goals might need to be altered to fit those interests.
My question goes along with Sabrina's, isn't grading something that is dictated by the school you work at? And if not, how do we decide what grading policy will best suit us, the students, and the parents?
Ooh, I am glad you mentioned the parents. I would think some of them, especially parents with a lot of ambition for their child, would need a solid explanation of Atwell's methods, if we were to use them.
Comment: When I first started reading this chapter, I thought about all of the questions that Atwell asked and thought that some kids might just prefer to get a grade and be done instead of writing paragraphs about what they think about their progress. But, then I remembered that this is Atwell, and of course, she prepared and fostered her kids into knowing that writing is something you do for yourself and for your own growth. I especially like when Atwell states, “A student’s incentive is the work itself—improving as a writer and reader, accomplishing goals, experiencing the increasing power and pleasure that writing and reading can bring to one’s life” (p. 321-322). I want to take Atwell’s questions and practices in self-evaluations and use them. Students shouldn’t just work to get a good grade. They should work toward the goal of improving themselves. It just makes the work more valuable, and the success sweeter.
I agree! While I do think students enjoy getting good grades for the sake of grades, making them aware of the real world and the potential their skills will play in shaping it will serve them in the long run. It makes me kinda sad though that Atwell doesn't get involved with research papers or things like that. In my opinion, there are a lot of opportunities for students who engage in that kind of writing as well as the creative kind.
Question: The only concern that I had for this type of evaluation and assessment is the idea that students should all be held to the same standard. Atwell’s assessment practices focus on student progression and participation in the writing and reading workshops. I can’t imagine any downsides to her portfolio and self-evaluation approach, but are there any? Sometimes, I feel like I fall in love with every idea we come across, so this is a legitimate question.
One of the concerns I have with the portfolios is that the teacher gets overwhelmed with evaluating student work and loses progress on other assignments. At the same time, I think students would be pressured to meet all the due dates forced upon them by the portfolio. That happened to my college creative writing class last year. It went pretty bad.
Comment: I also really like the idea of Atwell's self evaluation questionnaires. If I were going to try using them though, I would want to combine them with one on one conferences wherever possible. There's just so much more that two people can succeed at than one person can.
Question: How much time should we devote in class towards the creation of personal goals that mirror Atwell's technique, and how much of a weight on their final grade do you believe it should weigh? How likely do you believe that school systems would allow you to place a large weight on student self assessments give the current trend towards standardized testing?
Comment: I greatly enjoyed the idea of self assessment as an essential role in the classroom. Within many of the classes I have attended, success or failure was merely whether I passed the tests and essays at regular intervals. The idea of actual growth was rather disconnected from the process of education. Creating and moving towards achievable goals would have created more of an emotional investment in the lessons, and I would have been better prepared to transfer the lessons to new areas.
Question: I like that each student gave specific examples in their evals because she asked specific questions. They, in turn, gave her meaningful responses. How can we, too, get our students to this point where they want to write more than a few word answers? Do y'all think it has to do with these well thought out eval sheets & the time she takes to conference with her students?
Comment: I am still impressed by how many pieces of writing that Atwell's students complete by the end of one year! And, they read a lot, too. Wow. I think that it's great that she has them working toward an end product. It's nice that she lets the students select representative work to include in their portfolio at the end of each trimester. These can include photographs that relate to their pieces along with record-keeping forms, samples of work, & other pieces that illustrate their efforts. I can imagine that some students are working toward this goal of creating a masterpiece by the end of the year. I'm sure they are so proud to have a collection of their work so organized & presentable that records their growth as a writer & reader over the past year.
Question: (Refer to p. 301 if needed) What are some pros and cons that come to mind with the portfolio evaluation? Is this something you would like to bring into your classroom? Why or why not?
ReplyDeleteComment: I love the major role self-evaluation plays in Atwell's classroom. I think that successful student self-evaluation depends on consistency and reoccurrence, as well as meaningful questions and guidance from teachers.
Sorry, I forgot to type this quote: "Kids left out a lot when I didn't provide a prompt that help them retrieve experiences and discover their meanings" (310). Again we see that a purposeful and well-written assessment is so very important for student learning.
DeleteQuestion: Atwell discusses how she would assign grades in systems that require them; she says she would assign an A, B, C, or D based on her determination of whether the student had achieved his or her goals that term. That kind of grading doesn't really relate to what I see in schools today though, with the advent of programs like PowerSchool. I know at my school, we're expected to update the grade book by the end of the day every Friday afternoon with at least one set of new grades. The principal conducts periodic audits and calls out teachers who haven't been updating! So I suppose my question is, how do you think Atwell would approach THAT kind of environment, in which at least one new graded assignment needs to be added a week?
ReplyDeletePossibly 1-2 mini-lessons a week could have an exercise that earns a grade, even if it is for degree of completion, not for accuracy (less time on teacher's part). She might also use the writing record and grade for her feedback that got corrected by student, amount of fresh writing, or even evidence a "birthed" idea was making it through several early steps of writing. Ugh-this presents such a dilemma, though, because all of these things sound tricky to measure. Atwell should write a book about hybridizing her methods with "what we see in schools today". Something tells me that task would make her skin crawl, though.
DeleteWow. That's a lot of grading! I guess my question would be -- don't you want meaningful things in the gradebook, not just effort grades? That must be a lot of pressure to get that extra assignment in every week. Not only are you coming up with lesson plans, preparing each night, & grading other work, but you're having to come up with another assignment to have graded by the end of the week, too? Busy, busy!
DeleteAtwell's system seems to based off of creative writing and not research papers or essays. I don't even think we've ever seen her teach the scholarly side of things. So I agree with Randi that this style of grading Atwell loves would probably not stand in most public schools.
DeleteWell, unfortunately, yes. A lot of students and parents DO what a lot of effort grades in the gradebook. They're focused on the college they want their kid to attend, and a lot of grades means grade inflation. I've never heard this, but I have a lot of coworkers who have been told "_____ doesn't get B's." Another scenario I'd be curious to see Atwell take on - it'd be fascinating to watch!
Deleteoops. *Do want. It's too late for me to type anything!
DeleteComment: I don't always consider how valuable self-evaluation can be for students. I love the questions she asks them every trimester...I'll probably end up stealing them for future use! It seems like she's struck a good balance between course specific questions and questions that encourage the students to reflect upon where they are as readers and writers.
ReplyDeleteAgreed! When I was in high school, our self-evaluation prompts were so 1) rare and 2) meaningless that nobody took them seriously. I think self-evaluation is only successful if it is constant and meaningful.
DeleteI really think the idea of meaningful is the most important. Often times, I feel like, self-evaluations are boring and not-productive, either because they don't help us or they aren't used properly. A meaningful assessment means it will most likely be used properly and with great effect.
DeleteSeriously. I wonder if half my teachers even read our evals? I think we did a lot of group evals when I was in middle & high school. I always thought that they were vague & didn't really help me to improve on anything. So, providing students with meaningful ones is essential, otherwise, why even do them?
DeleteI am glad Atwell spells out so clearly how her school makes this valuation method work, because it is overwhelming to try and imagine it with no reference-it seems very foreign to what I've seen in schools. I do believe that teaching a student to self-evaluate without angst and excuses is one of the most valuable things you can do. I see it work for their school because they give the students the language to critically analyze, and they have a specific yet fluid structure to their evaluations.
ReplyDeleteAs for my favorite take-aways from this chapter, I like students stapling their goals card to the pocket of their folder, and I like (p. 322) the graded criteria: demonstrate growth in topic selection, level of involvement, degree of effort, etc. (the whole list)
I liked that too. That way, students are constantly reminded of their goals
DeleteQuestion: After reading all of these chapters about grading, my mind is officially twisted in knots. I guess my question is, do you think grading will be something that we have to figure out ourselves when we get into our actual job? (Since their seems to be certain rules for certain schools...)
ReplyDeleteI think that grading will depend heavily on the school you're at. Right now, I am just soaking up all the different grading methods and learning as much as I can. Then when I get a job, I can mold my method with the school's policies in mind.
DeleteI agree with Chelsea here. After our visits from some of those teachers, I'm not sure if we have a huge range of choices when it comes to grading, but if our philosophy is sound, then our grading should still be an accurate reflection of student achievement and progress.
DeleteYeah, I think it will definitely come down to the school. Ultimately, grading is going to exist for a while probably, so I am trying to figure out ways to implement what i want to do while figuring out how to come up with a grade based off of those methods. I want my expectations to meet the grades, otherwise I am lying to my students.
DeleteI am anxious to get in the classroom & see how my host teacher grades. I'm glad that we are looking into this now so we can get a feel of where we stand. Once we see grading put into action, we can modify how we'd go about it & think of ways to come up with a good compromise if the school we get hired at has very strict rules & policies on grading. Thank goodness we're being introduced to all these approaches to grading! eep!
DeleteComment: I really loved Atwell's self-assessment sheets. I never really thought about her assessments being so in-depth. But, they truly seem to delve deep into course and upon reading, you can see if the student has an understanding or if they don't.
ReplyDeleteI agree! They were so in-depth. My question was does she ask all of her students the same questions, or does she tailor them for each student.
DeleteI found myself thoroughly enjoying the questionnaires that she handed to her students. That is on thing that I really want to do, not only so students can see for themselves, but also for me, as a teacher, to see where they are and where they think they are; the latter being, I believe, more important, because that is where you will need to meet them to get order to get them to where you think they should and can go during your class.
ReplyDeleteThere is a quote on pg. 300 that states, "Until we realize that the student is the best evaluator of his or her own learning, we will never know what our students really know or are able to do." That connects to something that Atwell herself mentions near the ned of the chapter, or in the middle (no pun intended) where she talks about the importance of nurturing and encouraging students through the writing process. That is something we have been learning in class, as well. Now for the question: How do we go about encouraging students during the process, while still making it imperative that growth is expected?
ReplyDeleteI think Atwell's point about reminding students of their progress and their goals is imperative for the self-evaluation process. She said she had them staple notecards with their goals written on them to their folders. Having a set and visible goal that the students themselves set seems to be a pretty big encourager.
DeleteQuestion: On page 301, Atwell discusses the use of portfolios in evaluating a student's work over the course of a school year. She claims that it is an efficient way to keep track of a student's progress and helps shape the student for the real world where he or she will have to keep organized. While I like the idea of using a portfolio, I'm a little bit cautious when it comes to maintaining one in school. In college, our professor went about trying to have us write for our portfolio and it made the work seem more like a chore than a learning experience. Also, it was a pain for our professor to keep track of all the work that was coming in. Then again, maybe a teacher who uses portfolios frequently and has the students work come in more smoothly can create an effective evaluation of student work. What do ya'll think about portfolios?
ReplyDeleteStatement: I agree 100% with Atwell's method of grading a prose or poetry piece by a student. If we grade them off of quality, then each beginning writer will fail and learn nothing. Instead, we must grade our students based off how much hard work they are putting into the stories and how much progress they are making based off when they first started writing in the class.
ReplyDeleteI loved the point she made about that as well. Do you think this translates to other forms of writing or does it just apply to creative writing?
DeleteI love the idea of grading based of off progress and effort. I had a teacher in college that did that, and it was a great motivating factor, because we knew that he believed in us and expected us to do our best, but he also took in how much we had grown as individuals during the course.
DeleteWithout the pressure of "I have to make a good grade", I think students can really focus on producing a great piece. I wished that my teachers had looked at my progression rather than just marking my piece up. A grade doesn't define who you are as a student. So, I like that Atwell bases her decisions on progress.
DeleteLeslie, I think it could apply to other writing besides the creative kind but I wouldn't be as lenient with just basing my grades off hard work. Research papers have an argument that the author needs to uphold and, in my opinion, scholarly essays are easier to grasp than creative writing is. But that is just my opinion.
DeleteI love how much self-evaluation is brought into Atwell's classroom. It wasn't something I had thought to specifically focus on in terms of figuring out how the students are progressing through their own eyes. I also really liked how much emphasis Atwell puts on students setting goals in her class, especially the quote that says "goals aren't carved in stone, and if something happens and they require alteration, the writer and I alter them." I feel like sometimes we set goals for students and don't take into account that interests might change and goals might need to be altered to fit those interests.
ReplyDeleteMy question goes along with Sabrina's, isn't grading something that is dictated by the school you work at? And if not, how do we decide what grading policy will best suit us, the students, and the parents?
ReplyDeleteOoh, I am glad you mentioned the parents. I would think some of them, especially parents with a lot of ambition for their child, would need a solid explanation of Atwell's methods, if we were to use them.
DeleteComment: When I first started reading this chapter, I thought about all of the questions that Atwell asked and thought that some kids might just prefer to get a grade and be done instead of writing paragraphs about what they think about their progress. But, then I remembered that this is Atwell, and of course, she prepared and fostered her kids into knowing that writing is something you do for yourself and for your own growth. I especially like when Atwell states, “A student’s incentive is the work itself—improving as a writer and reader, accomplishing goals, experiencing the increasing power and pleasure that writing and reading can bring to one’s life” (p. 321-322). I want to take Atwell’s questions and practices in self-evaluations and use them. Students shouldn’t just work to get a good grade. They should work toward the goal of improving themselves. It just makes the work more valuable, and the success sweeter.
ReplyDeleteI agree! While I do think students enjoy getting good grades for the sake of grades, making them aware of the real world and the potential their skills will play in shaping it will serve them in the long run. It makes me kinda sad though that Atwell doesn't get involved with research papers or things like that. In my opinion, there are a lot of opportunities for students who engage in that kind of writing as well as the creative kind.
DeleteQuestion: The only concern that I had for this type of evaluation and assessment is the idea that students should all be held to the same standard. Atwell’s assessment practices focus on student progression and participation in the writing and reading workshops. I can’t imagine any downsides to her portfolio and self-evaluation approach, but are there any? Sometimes, I feel like I fall in love with every idea we come across, so this is a legitimate question.
ReplyDeleteOne of the concerns I have with the portfolios is that the teacher gets overwhelmed with evaluating student work and loses progress on other assignments. At the same time, I think students would be pressured to meet all the due dates forced upon them by the portfolio. That happened to my college creative writing class last year. It went pretty bad.
DeleteComment: I also really like the idea of Atwell's self evaluation questionnaires. If I were going to try using them though, I would want to combine them with one on one conferences wherever possible. There's just so much more that two people can succeed at than one person can.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: How much time should we devote in class towards the creation of personal goals that mirror Atwell's technique, and how much of a weight on their final grade do you believe it should weigh? How likely do you believe that school systems would allow you to place a large weight on student self assessments give the current trend towards standardized testing?
ReplyDeleteComment: I greatly enjoyed the idea of self assessment as an essential role in the classroom. Within many of the classes I have attended, success or failure was merely whether I passed the tests and essays at regular intervals. The idea of actual growth was rather disconnected from the process of education. Creating and moving towards achievable goals would have created more of an emotional investment in the lessons, and I would have been better prepared to transfer the lessons to new areas.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: I like that each student gave specific examples in their evals because she asked specific questions. They, in turn, gave her meaningful responses. How can we, too, get our students to this point where they want to write more than a few word answers? Do y'all think it has to do with these well thought out eval sheets & the time she takes to conference with her students?
ReplyDeleteComment: I am still impressed by how many pieces of writing that Atwell's students complete by the end of one year! And, they read a lot, too. Wow. I think that it's great that she has them working toward an end product. It's nice that she lets the students select representative work to include in their portfolio at the end of each trimester. These can include photographs that relate to their pieces along with record-keeping forms, samples of work, & other pieces that illustrate their efforts. I can imagine that some students are working toward this goal of creating a masterpiece by the end of the year. I'm sure they are so proud to have a collection of their work so organized & presentable that records their growth as a writer & reader over the past year.
ReplyDelete