What do you guys think of this quote: "I learned the difference between role-modeling writing and taking off the top of my head, between performing and demonstrating. Everything I wrote in front of my ids was true, it all mattered to me in my life, and none of it was an exercise done for their benefit. Because of that, I'm convinced, it benefited them enormously." Pg. 368 Thoughts?
I loved this quote. I actually had it highlighted. I really like how she referred to how she was teaching as "taking off the top of my head." I think it paints a vivid picture of what she was actually doing... opening up with her students and making herself vulnerable. I think her students really responded to that.
I like the quote but I'm not sure how to make it work with the idea from earlier in the reading that she would sometimes deliberately write poorly to illustrate a lesson. How does that count as writing true?
I think that she was saying that by writing about things that mattered to her & keeping things authentic (not trying to be something she wasn't), it was in that that she realized she was doing the most good for her students. Had she tried to form her writing around things that they liked to "benefit" them, she would have lost the vulnerability, as Sabrina puts it. The kids would have picked up on the fact that she was trying to please them rather than focusing on what she knew & what was important to her. So, I like that realization that she had. It's something to think about for sure.
I think she is saying something along the lines of: here, watch me while I do my own work. This way you can see what I'm thinking and what I'm doing while I do it. You will understand better than if I simply stand up here and tell you how to do it. Just watch. Just observe. Tell me what I am doing. You will understand.
I think it is the most appropriate type of teacher sharing there is. In our curriculum class we had quite a discussion of sharing religious or political views (quite a few private school grads or teachers in there), and this quote from Ms. Atwell is the antidote to all that.
I love the idea of writing along with your students that Atwell mentions throughout the chapter. We have been reading a lot about writing alongside your students, because it is a form of modeling, but it also is away to practice your craft. Hey, this story that got published, I wrote in this classroom. You will be able to say things like that.I just love the idea of writing with my students because I want them to become better writers so they can experience the thrill of satisfaction from a work.
I think this is so important! I've never been a great writer, and I don't think of myself as very creative. But I think that writing with my students watching could help me and allow my students to see that I'm working on improving my writing just like they are!
And it is just good teaching. You aren't standing in front of them as some writing idol to be aspired to. You are simply showing them that the only difference between a good writer and a "meh" writer is how much your try and practice and care. If your kids see that you also have to work at writing well, then they feel that aren't very far away from great writing.
Comment: Reading about Atwell's use of one in her classroom, I really want an overhead projector in my classroom. I also really like the last paragraph of the chapter and I think it perfectly sums up what our goals should be!
I'll bet you can get a used projector cheap these days! Or probably some schools have a closet full of them. Or you can project your tablet. After Ms. Nix talked about using a projector the other day, I was thinking about how she would hand out a sheet of transparency to each group and then she could project each group's writing. Maybe we should track down a projector and see if we like it. Remind me to do that.
I agree! It sounded a bit old school or out-dated at first, but I want one to now, too. I thought about how you could project your computer screen and write in a Word document or something, but the transparency would allow students to see the revisions and the corrections that we make in the revision process.
Other options that you can do the same thing with are sold object projectors, which are becoming more common, and just projecting your computer screen. Most claims are probably going to have at least one of these options nowadays.
Whenever my teachers brought out a projector, we knew it was a fun day! There's just something about getting to write on a sheet of transparency and seeing it projected on the board! I know technology has advanced a lot lately, but I'll always be a fan of the projector haha
I can see their usefulness, but I always zoned out and would get incredibly transfixed by watching the ink dry as the teacher wrote. For some reason it fascinated me how quickly, yet how slowly, the colors would change.
Yes, they are wasting away in closets like archived dinosaurs. I'd like to use one now too, and it is true that most copiers still let you slide in transparency film to make copies. Somewhere out there is a cool science video on how to use large clock faces, food coloring and water to make 60's style light shows on an overhead, too.
True, I always felt that typing was a bit clunky to work with and disconnected.
Plus, it is much harder to leave lasting notes. You can compare the before and after examples of writing and assume witchcraft must be involved. But seeing the marked up, crossed out, and cluttered sheets she has in the book on p.337 and you get a feel of how writing is about experimenting and trial and error.
Question: A lot of the activities/ideas that Atwell presents in this chapter are clearly aimed towards middle school students. What are some ways we can use the same techniques but apply them to older, high school students?
I think a lot of the things could be easily transferrable by just tweaking a few things. For example, I think all age groups could benefit from a teacher writing on the overhead (which I loved too!) and opening up to the students about their individual writing process. I think when students see that you scratch things out, write poorly at times, and have to reign in your thoughts, too it makes them feel like they're capable of writing like an adult.
Comment: I really like that Atwell allots time to teach conventions. In fact, I appreciate that she teaches her students how to write thank you letters. Don't laugh, but this is a big deal to me. I think this is something that kids should be taught in school. I know that she doesn't go into depth about this because she focuses on a sympathy letter example, but it's still noted on page 346.
A thank you letter is such a personal way to send a sincere thanks to someone. Nowadays, I realize that sending an email or shooting someone a text is the norm, but something about getting a handwritten note or letter is so thoughtful. I love it! yeahh, Atwell! I'm all for this.
I loved this, too Jessica! My mom has always been a stickler for thank you notes and my sisters and I have carried this with us as we've gotten older. I have written more thank you letters than I can count, and this would have been so beneficial to me. I also think if children know how to write one, they'll be more likely to do it!
I thought that was great as well. Communication is all the time an teaching students about the many different forms that have everyday practicality can really help improve the quality of the experience.
My dad is a big fan of thank you notes as well! I thought it was so neat that Atwell found it important to teach her students how to write these types of things as well as the typical essays and short stories. I'm definitely a fan of the choices Atwell makes!!
See, I fall on the opposite line here. While I do like Atwell's idea of teach the practicality of writing, and her idea of "gifts of writing", I find thank you notes to be really insincere, snooty even. I've always preferred direct communication for expressing thanks. I feel phone calls or in person thanksgiving are the way to go.
Also, as far as personal practical writing goes. There is probably some bad juju behind it. But I really really enjoy writing eulogies for people that are still alive. I think it helps you focus on why they are important to you now.
I highlighted this line from P. 349 after a student emulated Atwell's condolence letter "Because Elizabeth is learning from me, I'm choosing to see this as an example of intertextuality, not plagiarism." I love this-but I hope no clever student thinks to use it as a comeback. Then again, I'd probably laugh.
Dawson, you only feel that way because you've never read one of Jessica's thank you notes! I do agree that thank you notes can be insincere and rote, but they can also be wonderful.
Comment: I also liked that she focused on other types of writing. It feels so natural for us to teach academic and creative writing, but I think we forget that students have no models really for smaller, day to day writing tasks that they'll have to perform. I believe she mentioned even more types of writing, like personal letters and eulogies, in other chapters. I have to admit, I've had to write all of these, and I wish I had had someone modeling for me. I definitely think this is a technique I'll try this year.
This is so true! How often in real life does anyone write an essay? Why don't we have students do more writing of the types of things people really write on a daily basis?
We should brainstorm a list of things people write frequently. I certainly write a lot of requests, directions, thank you's. These are mostly in the form of emails, but they still need to be fairly well written.
Well, considering the kinds of emails I've gotten from students, I almost wonder if it wouldn't be good for them to really learn how to write online as well! I try telling them that people form opinions about the authors of emails, so they need to be just as well written as the stuff they write in my class, but they never seem to believe me...it makes me worried for when they start applying for jobs!
I've seen so many people come in to the various restaurants I've worked and filled out applications with laughable results. My all-time favorite is the response to the question "What are your weaknesses?" ... "None," is one of the worst possible answers I have ever seen. That immediately tells your employer several things. 1. You are a liar. 2. You ave a big ego. 3. I'm not going to hire you. 4. You think I'm stupid.
I'm fairly certain I may have a minilesson dedicated to filling out job applications that make my students sound awesome and hireable.
Hey, Dawson, I like your idea! Actually contact your DOL, too, and ask them who teaches their application/interview classes-they'd probably be pleased to consult with you!
I wish the school systems I was educated at did more of that. While I cannot comment much on primary school or middle school, I know that I cannot remember a single time I wrote something "useful." It was all literary analysis and short 5 paragraph essays.
I did not learn anything about resumes until my 4th year of college for freaking out loud.
Question: Atwell writes, "It's one thing to have success orchestrating the mechanics of writing workshop & the student activity it promotes: it can look impressive as the students draft away & the folders fill up. But it's another to look at who we are to our students & how our activity as writers promotes their engagement, their sense of purpose, & the chance they'll achieve excellence as writers."
With that in mind, how do we teach our students that it's not about quantity, it's about quality of work? Alby has mentioned many times that we need to be doing our work, not for her, but for ourselves.
Also, how do y'all plan on going above & beyond to get your students' attention (& hold it), help them find out who they are as a writer, & then continue to build from what they have learned over time -- all while assessing yourself (as a writer, their teacher, & their model)? I hope that makes sense.
As far as grabbing students' attention, I think humor can work miracles. Even in Atwell's videos she throws in a joke every now and then when it gets too quiet or the students seem to be losing interest. It seems to reel them back in and reengages them.
As for your frist question, I think this is a tough one. I think students have been taught for so long that they are doing work for their teachers, that it is confusing when a teacher tells them they are working for themselves. Students are used to due dates and writing to please their teacher's interests. I think the main challenge is to get them to write for themselves. When they do this, they'll begin to care about the piece and want to make it perfect. I think then they will understand that it is better to perfect one piece of writing than write a ton of decent pieces.
Yes, it is the "getting them to write FOR THEMSELVES" that is going to be key. Isn't that the writing you most enjoy? Even if you are writing as a present for someone or for publication, that is still writing for your own purposes.
I think we should be careful when we say quality over quantity because Atwell herself seems to have afford more of a quality THROUGH quantity approach. The idea seems to be that since we become good at something by doing it often, students will learn to produce quality writing by doing lots of writing.
I definitely don't think I'd use it every day, because it seems fairly time-consuming. But I do love it and I think it is very beneficial to the students. I think maybe using it for specific pieces of writing that seem to be challenging the students the most would be a good way of incorporating it.
Remind me to talk about this - think alouds are one of the most useful strategies we have as teachers, but they are SO easy to do badly, and then they just seem boring or patronizing. Wilhelm has a whole book dedicated to the think aloud. I've got some examples of it on the Atwell video too.
Think about your own experiences. When was a time someone demonstrated something and talked through how they were doing it and you were riveted?
I think one thing would be to think aloud on a subject that the students already like, but we're pushing them to go to either a deeper level or at least unfamiliar territory.
Question: On page 335 of chapter 10, Atwell claims that she wrote a bad memoir about a former second grade student of hers named Laurel. She had certain agendas she was trying to convey but they didn't seem to do the trick for the outside reader wanting a way into the experience. So my question to you guys is: what makes a memoir good? What qualities must it have for an outside reader to enjoy it?
Comment: So far, I'm on par with Atwell's plan to use mini-lessons in order to teach students how to craft meaningful stories. At the same time though, she is teaching middle school students and I'm not sure if I'd want to continue that process into high school or college. I did have a college professor who used mini-lessons in order for us to grasp screenplay writing but much of the quality of the other students' work remained the same. Which is why I'm considering using a different approach as students grow up.
I think details make a memoir! Smells, sounds, visuals, I think all of these things really grab a reader's attention and keep them plugged in for the entire read.
YES, Sabrina! I agree. Specific details can go a long way! I personally like when I feel as if I'm there & the words on the page are brought to life. I try to find little pieces that I can relate to that connects me to the author. And, you can do so many memorable lessons to incorporate smells, sounds, & such. The ones that really jump out at the kids will stick with them.
I'm very interested in the second part of your comment on think alouds. It is hard for me to imagine why they wouldn't work with older students if done well. To this day what often helps me the most is watching someone do something and talking through how they did it. I wonder if there was something about those screenplay think alouds that made them less successful? What would alternatives be?
Comment: I really loved the fact that she went into detail about writing in front of her students. I had imagined, after reading previous chapters and watching the Developing Writers videos, that Atwell took previously written texts and had the students revise them. I had no idea this demonstration teaching was actually Atwell writing, brainstorming and creating, in front of the students. I think this can be so beneficial, especially for students who have trouble getting going or need some tips on how to organize their thoughts!
I agree! I think it may not be as important for high school students, but definitely a good thing for middle school kids to watch how you write and use the same techniques. I can see how younger students would feel more comfortable writing if they see their teacher willing to write in front of them!
Question: I love the fact that Atwell brings in her personal experiences and teaches her students. For example, she used her daughter's birthday as a way to bring her personal life into writing poetry. She also helped students talk about death by incorporating condolence writing into her unit plan. Do you think this is transferrable to high school, as well?
Also, I loved all of the poems and pieces of writing she included that were written by her students. Do you think it would be a good idea at the end of the year to maybe "publish" your own classroom poetry book with each student's writing in it?
I like that Atwell does incorporate so much of her "real life" experiences into her writing & teaching. She is essentially developing a trust with her reader by doing so. In addition, I think many of her ideas can be transferrable to high school with slight modifications & more in-depth lessons in the classroom. If anything, the basis of her ideas are a great place to start, you know? If you've noticed, Alby uses a lot of Atwell's "tricks" by sharing her own writing with us (when we're being 9th or 10th graders) & having us develop/collaborate on how to improve the piece. I liked that Alby had us continue on with her 13th birthday story the other day as a group, then as a smaller group, & then individually. Hearing everyone else's ideas, gives those that may be struggling, a little something to get started. Nice strategy regardless the grade level.
And, i absolutely think that the teacher could publish classroom poetry books with the student's writing. Atwell mentioned in one of the videos that she does that several times a year. I see this as a huge encouragement to her students to see, visible evidence, that their writing is worthy to be published. I also think that they would work harder on developing the things that she's teaching knowing that it's intended to be read by others in the class, other classes, parents, other teachers, etc.
I love that Atwell creates a coffeehouse setting for these tiny poets!! I think that was amazing.
Sabrina, I thought her bringing in her own writing about her personal life was excellent and could definitely be transferred to the high school classroom.
I also like how she asked her students for advice about writing that one poem for her daughter. Not only did she ask for advice from her studens, but she also took that advice and used it. It makes her seem very genuine.
I thought the idea of publishing works even in the classroom was a really good idea. It makes writing meaningful. Students love hearing about the teacher, and so using that to help get them engaged, transcends grade level, I believe.
I've been to two coffeehouse poetry readings for my oldest 2 boys' fifth grade classes. They invited the parents and had a nice spread, decorations, jazz, the whole shebang. The students LOVED doing it, and they shared some fantastic work! I would think 6th graders would love doing this for parents, too. I wonder if older students would...
I love the idea of publishing students work in the classroom or holding a coffeehouse poetry reading. It gives students a place to feel proud of what they have accomplished and show off what they have written. Also I believe that it is very possible to transfer condolence writing, or thank you notes, or whatever to the high school level.
Comment: I think Nancie Atwell is a good teacher and I'd like to try to emulate her but honestly, as silly as this sounds, I think I'd feel a bit self conscious about actually doing my writing in front of my students. I'd happily write in class while they were sitting and happily share what I've written, but writing on a projector with an audience gives me the heebie-jeebies for some reason.
I agree. I think it would make me self-conscious or nervous at first. I like Cynthia's solution for putting up something that was written earlier and then maybe easing into the idea of writing in front of them.
Question: If you were to model a piece of "bad" writing for your students would you immediately start of with "here's how not to do it" or would you be more subtle about it?
That's a good question. I think it would depend on whether they were middle or high schoolers. Maybe ask "what would make this writing better" instead of "here's how not to do it."
I would be more subtle about it. I think showing them what could have been improved is a better route. Words are powerful and so I would want to state what could have been improved rather than what was wrong. And then even showing them what didn't work if they don't pick up on it.
Saying "here's how not to do it" could be really intimidating! I think I would start off by showing the piece and asking students what was wrong, or could be fixed.
I think I would be more subtle about it, as well. If a student commented on how they liked this or that aspect of the piece, you could say, "what could I have done here to make it even better?"
I agree, Chelsea! I think asking the question "what could I have done here to make it even better?" really allows the students to feel like they're helping you, while at the same time they are learning.
The Gadoe.org website has sample papers of 8th grade expository writing(no narrative), and of course there are good and bad. They even give annotations, but you could have the students give their critique before they see how the papers were rated. This is very impersonal and there's probably one for 11th grade writing test as well.
I loved Atwell's sestina over everything else she shared in Ch. 10. I have not tried to write one, but I love the wordplay in it. I would think it would be extremely difficult!
Comment: I loved the idea of sharing a flawed version of your work with the class. Besides the fact that it helps to model the techniques you want them to learn, I think it helps to demystify the process of writing and revision for the students. If they see you having trouble with your work, and working through it in a way they can understand, then that will make the process less scary when they face their own mistakes.
It is worlds above the way some go "Here's Jimmy's work. Now find every way he failed at it. Also: Point and laugh." While this might not be a fair portrayal of such a technique, it is an emotionally true one for a ten year old. By including yourself in the spotlight, the students will begin to lose the tension associated with revising and editing with the class.
Absolutely! It alleviates some of the pressure off the students when they realize that we, the teacher, go through the exact same process. We have to look back at our work & see things that need to be changed, crossed out, or what not just like they do. In the end, I think this will get them ready to share their own work with their classmates & not be as intimidated by the revision process.
I agree! Even I sometimes think of authors who write multiple novels as a type of magician or wizard of words. It's good for students to see that finished works come from the real, less magical, more muggle writing and revising process.
I also agree with your point about having the teacher included in the writing process alleviates the stress and fear that may come when students share their work in class.
One thing I'd really like to do after taking this class is pull together a resource that has both drafts and finished products of well known authors. It's so easy to forget how much work all writers have to put into revision, even the famous ones. You're right, students need to see the methods behind the magic more!
I agree. I think even in some of the Developing Writers videos they have put the student's work up for revision and just took away the name. I think this is still sort of degrading to the student, because they do know it is theirs. It is discouraging. If we, as teachers, put our work up for revision, I think it sends the message that everyone needs revision and that it isn't a bad thing.
Question: With the flawed draft exercise, how exactly should you guide your students to work on the areas you intended to build on? Students will surprise you, and they will find ways to raise the quality of the work which might only touch on your unit tangentially. While any group discussion is productive and valuable, we are all on a schedule. I do not just want to cut off their revision by telling them to get the 'right answer.'
Maybe use warm-up exercises with a page from an author that exemplified the technique? We have seen it often enough in class. Any other methods that come to mind?
I think what you are saying, what if we are trying to focus them on diction but they are focusing on everything BUT diction. One thing that helps is to do a mini-lesson first on diction, and it will definitely make it so they go to that first. Then you can ask them what else needs tweaking. And then you can end up saying, "You know what else I might change...?"
The portion of the chapter that talked about collaborative writing really interested me. We have talked about "writing with" students, but writing together is a novel idea. Spending a class period every week or so devoted to writing a piece that the entire class sort of had a say in is kind of cool. If I misinterpreted what Atwell was saying then please call me out on it. It's late and I don't really know what I read just now.
I loved the collaborative writing, as well. I really liked how she even wrote about her personal life, like her daughter's birthday. It seemed to build a connection between teacher and students.
The portion of the chapter that talked about collaborative writing really interested me. We have talked about "writing with" students, but writing together is a novel idea. Spending a class period every week or so devoted to writing a piece that the entire class sort of had a say in is kind of cool. If I misinterpreted what Atwell was saying then please call me out on it. It's late and I don't really know what I read just now.
Comment: There is a lot to like and comment on in chapter ten of Atwell’s book. First of all, I love that students are able to see that writing has worth and can be given as a gift. This idea brings a different perspective of writing than what kids are used to hearing. It tells them that their words are valuable and are able to be treasured and kept forever.
Another thing I love about this chapter is Atwell’s willingness to not only write and share her writing with her students, but also to teach and discuss from her writing. Noting her use of transparencies when writing in front of the class, I couldn’t help but notice Atwell’s own transparency as a teacher (as cheesy as that may sound). I, admittedly, would be a bit nervous to write a story in front of my students, but like Atwell says, “We only have to write a little better than they do for them to take away something from our demonstrations” (p. 368).
I also love what she says at the very end of this chapter: “When we, as English teachers, demonstrate the uses of writing in our lives, we answer the most important question of all about writing: Why would anyone want to write? (p. 369). I’m thinking about creating a Word document that contains a slew of possible answers to the question that students are bound to ask: “When are we ever going to use this stuff?”
It is clear from reading and class that Creative Writing has its place in our curriculum. How much of a place should it have though? Should every unit have a creative writing component, or should there be a whole unit devoted to the subject?
I like the idea of incorporating all types of writing into thematically bound units. After all, in the real world we use all modes of discourse all the time. I feel like students need to practice understanding what kind of writing they need when given a task, and the best way to do that is to keep the genres mixed.
The unit focus I'm working on in class is about how things like word choice are influenced by author's intent. This is relevant to both creative works and nonfiction, so I would want to have both be a part of the unit.
I feel like it is part of the whole-ELA-she-bang! The trick is finding a balance. Teaching a little of both of using one to help teach the other. You could spend an entire unit of just learning how to write, but then the student has nothing to connect it to. Seeing them side by side, I think, should be extra helpful.
Truth be told, this emphasis on creative writing, with narrative writing in particular, was one of the hardest concepts for me to accept when I entered this program. The idea that the teacher would ask *ME* what I was feeling or thought about something (other than a contrived 5 paragraph essay like) seemed completely alien to me.
Which might explain why I was so unprepared when I originally went into the creative writing program.
I actually really enjoyed Atwell's sample lesson over "gifts of writing" I think it provides a very practical use for the students' work that may need to be able to see the everyday importance of having well-developed writing skills. One other thing I thought was very interesting was her idea of doing some of her writing in real time on the projector in front of her students. I thought this was a great idea! I think it would be very important for the students to see someone else's writing process, that it is never perfect the first time, that it is okay scratch out and add in and do over. I think it provides a comfort knowing that even the teacher, who has been writing for years and years, still has a very messy first draft.
When Nancy talks about having her students write poems based off of the videos of Shakespeare plays they had watched, she mentioned one student, Curt, who was entirely unable to write one and came back to school with nothing. I have had many teachers that, regardless of my understanding, would rain down with discipline on any student who didn't do their homework. Which in some case makes sense; I can't teach you if you didn't do the prerequisite. So is there a difference between "didn't" and "couldn't do my homework?" How do we tell the difference? How do we handle it when a student can't figure something out because we didn't explain it in a way that worked for them individually?
I think there is a difference between "didn't" and "couldn't" do the homework, but I think you would have a hard time using "discipline" with one and not the other. I think grading-wise, we'll need to handle every situation where a student doesn't have their homework the same way. I think we should treat it like they couldn't do it, because even if they didn't attempt, I think it is often because they were already discouraged because they didn't "get it." In this scenario, I think it would be a good idea to teach the student in a new way, from a new perspective.
Oy, that is a tricky one. For subjects like math, I would tell the students, you must try, because then you come back the next day at least being able to tell the teacher what you don't understand. Especially if you have problems on paper, you can rework or practice them once you've had that second day to pay closer attention to what you know from your homework experience you did not understand. I think the same thing could apply to many types of ELA assignments. Sometimes there is that writer's block or the brother's ballgame that goes into extra innings til late-then a precious homework pass (possibly earned earlier) is handy!
Going off of Felicia's comment: How often did you have any teacher that accepted your prewriting at the deadline. It always seemed "finish or get a F." And because the drafts were rarely really valued, I never personally got a sense of their value. We need to dispel this kind o thinking if we are going to improve the system.
Amen, Lee! The drafts, to me, deserve the most thorough attention because the students will be expected to take that, learn and apply, then improve! I have been with an 8th grade teacher (and a lot is on the line that year) with >30 years of experience, and she was very good at giving them at least 3 steps where they revised from comments (timely feedback on her part) and peer activities, too. But I certainly have been with others, too where I'm sure the students felt a little abandoned.
Question: I really liked the idea that Atwell uses of "writing badly on purpose" so that she won't have to share a student's work with the class when she wants to prove a point. Do you guys think this is effective or would it be more effective and personal to share an example of the student's flawed work?
If I were to ever show a student created work as an example of something that needs improving I would make sure to do one of two things first. I would either talk with the student beforehand to make sure they are comfortable with it, or I would use a piece from a pervious year's class, so the student in question won't be in the classroom and will be able to remain anonymous.
I think someone already commented on the idea of giving gifts as writing, but I love the practice and idea so I am going to comment again. I think that writing thank you notes, poems to your mom, or any other sort of writing that goes with gift giving is becoming less and less apart of our society. Atwell's teaching of it gives students skill they will need in the future and adds a personal tie that the students can relate to.
Comment: This was my favorite quote, "Student memoirists should be discovering and describing their own reactions and reflections, just as they should work at ascribing thoughts and feelings to main characters in their fiction" (p. 335). This quote is so important because it pretty much sums up Atwell's teaching style: that writing and reading skills influence and assist the other.
Question: Atwell's teaching style is grounded in "modeling." For instance, instead of demanding her students take "better notes," she asks them to comment on her own notes about a film or book, and therein the kids discover what good note-taking means. Was this the way you were taught in middle school?
I had this discussion with someone after reading this chapter as well. He said that his teachers in high school taught them at the beginning of class how they wanted their notes to look. I was never "taught" note-taking, and I think it is a skill that everyone does need to learn, or at least need to hear tips on.
I had a class my freshman year (pre-calc of all things) where my professor strictly forbid that anyone have anything on there desks. He just wanted you to come in, sit down, and watch him intently. He said that as soon as you start taking notes, you are more occupied by copying and keeping up than you are by actually paying attention and considering what he was saying. The kicker is he would record his classes and all of the work he did on his computer (which was all of it) and then print out discs of the class afterward for everyone to have. The costs of the discs were included in the course, so it isn't really feasible for high or middle schools, but I still like the concept.
I didn't catch that about the note taking. What a great idea! It's funny how many students, even in high school, are only comfortable copying notes word for word.
I am inspired by her use of parallel structure for the first poem (p. 341) she shared-I might try that in my memoir somehow. I need to get the idea down before I lose it. Have any of y'all used that to good effect? I also liked the conclusion of her lesson for Leah's story, because the students had seen Atwell struggle so intimately with the conclusion-what Leah's mom would say. I think one reason Atwell is so successful and such a great teacher is because of "WE". She said, "We added this technique to the classroom repertoire of things writers might try..." On a final note, I am curious about Cat's Eye by Margaret Atwood-has anyone read it?
What do you guys think of this quote: "I learned the difference between role-modeling writing and taking off the top of my head, between performing and demonstrating. Everything I wrote in front of my ids was true, it all mattered to me in my life, and none of it was an exercise done for their benefit. Because of that, I'm convinced, it benefited them enormously." Pg. 368 Thoughts?
ReplyDeleteI loved this quote. I actually had it highlighted. I really like how she referred to how she was teaching as "taking off the top of my head." I think it paints a vivid picture of what she was actually doing... opening up with her students and making herself vulnerable. I think her students really responded to that.
DeleteI like the quote but I'm not sure how to make it work with the idea from earlier in the reading that she would sometimes deliberately write poorly to illustrate a lesson. How does that count as writing true?
DeleteI think that she was saying that by writing about things that mattered to her & keeping things authentic (not trying to be something she wasn't), it was in that that she realized she was doing the most good for her students. Had she tried to form her writing around things that they liked to "benefit" them, she would have lost the vulnerability, as Sabrina puts it. The kids would have picked up on the fact that she was trying to please them rather than focusing on what she knew & what was important to her. So, I like that realization that she had. It's something to think about for sure.
DeleteI think she is saying something along the lines of: here, watch me while I do my own work. This way you can see what I'm thinking and what I'm doing while I do it. You will understand better than if I simply stand up here and tell you how to do it. Just watch. Just observe. Tell me what I am doing. You will understand.
DeleteI think it is the most appropriate type of teacher sharing there is. In our curriculum class we had quite a discussion of sharing religious or political views (quite a few private school grads or teachers in there), and this quote from Ms. Atwell is the antidote to all that.
DeleteI love the idea of writing along with your students that Atwell mentions throughout the chapter. We have been reading a lot about writing alongside your students, because it is a form of modeling, but it also is away to practice your craft. Hey, this story that got published, I wrote in this classroom. You will be able to say things like that.I just love the idea of writing with my students because I want them to become better writers so they can experience the thrill of satisfaction from a work.
ReplyDeleteI think this is so important! I've never been a great writer, and I don't think of myself as very creative. But I think that writing with my students watching could help me and allow my students to see that I'm working on improving my writing just like they are!
DeleteAnd it is just good teaching. You aren't standing in front of them as some writing idol to be aspired to. You are simply showing them that the only difference between a good writer and a "meh" writer is how much your try and practice and care. If your kids see that you also have to work at writing well, then they feel that aren't very far away from great writing.
DeleteComment: Reading about Atwell's use of one in her classroom, I really want an overhead projector in my classroom. I also really like the last paragraph of the chapter and I think it perfectly sums up what our goals should be!
ReplyDeleteI'll bet you can get a used projector cheap these days! Or probably some schools have a closet full of them. Or you can project your tablet. After Ms. Nix talked about using a projector the other day, I was thinking about how she would hand out a sheet of transparency to each group and then she could project each group's writing. Maybe we should track down a projector and see if we like it. Remind me to do that.
DeleteI agree! It sounded a bit old school or out-dated at first, but I want one to now, too. I thought about how you could project your computer screen and write in a Word document or something, but the transparency would allow students to see the revisions and the corrections that we make in the revision process.
DeleteOther options that you can do the same thing with are sold object projectors, which are becoming more common, and just projecting your computer screen. Most claims are probably going to have at least one of these options nowadays.
Delete*claims should read classrooms, sorry.
DeleteWhenever my teachers brought out a projector, we knew it was a fun day! There's just something about getting to write on a sheet of transparency and seeing it projected on the board! I know technology has advanced a lot lately, but I'll always be a fan of the projector haha
DeleteI can see their usefulness, but I always zoned out and would get incredibly transfixed by watching the ink dry as the teacher wrote. For some reason it fascinated me how quickly, yet how slowly, the colors would change.
DeleteYes, they are wasting away in closets like archived dinosaurs. I'd like to use one now too, and it is true that most copiers still let you slide in transparency film to make copies. Somewhere out there is a cool science video on how to use large clock faces, food coloring and water to make 60's style light shows on an overhead, too.
DeleteTrue, I always felt that typing was a bit clunky to work with and disconnected.
DeletePlus, it is much harder to leave lasting notes. You can compare the before and after examples of writing and assume witchcraft must be involved. But seeing the marked up, crossed out, and cluttered sheets she has in the book on p.337 and you get a feel of how writing is about experimenting and trial and error.
Question: A lot of the activities/ideas that Atwell presents in this chapter are clearly aimed towards middle school students. What are some ways we can use the same techniques but apply them to older, high school students?
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of the things could be easily transferrable by just tweaking a few things. For example, I think all age groups could benefit from a teacher writing on the overhead (which I loved too!) and opening up to the students about their individual writing process. I think when students see that you scratch things out, write poorly at times, and have to reign in your thoughts, too it makes them feel like they're capable of writing like an adult.
DeleteComment: I really like that Atwell allots time to teach conventions. In fact, I appreciate that she teaches her students how to write thank you letters. Don't laugh, but this is a big deal to me. I think this is something that kids should be taught in school. I know that she doesn't go into depth about this because she focuses on a sympathy letter example, but it's still noted on page 346.
ReplyDeleteA thank you letter is such a personal way to send a sincere thanks to someone. Nowadays, I realize that sending an email or shooting someone a text is the norm, but something about getting a handwritten note or letter is so thoughtful. I love it! yeahh, Atwell! I'm all for this.
I loved this, too Jessica! My mom has always been a stickler for thank you notes and my sisters and I have carried this with us as we've gotten older. I have written more thank you letters than I can count, and this would have been so beneficial to me. I also think if children know how to write one, they'll be more likely to do it!
DeleteI thought that was great as well. Communication is all the time an teaching students about the many different forms that have everyday practicality can really help improve the quality of the experience.
DeleteMy dad is a big fan of thank you notes as well! I thought it was so neat that Atwell found it important to teach her students how to write these types of things as well as the typical essays and short stories. I'm definitely a fan of the choices Atwell makes!!
DeleteI completely agree, Jessica. I wrote down "teach students how to write thank yous and condolences" in my ideas folder.
DeleteSee, I fall on the opposite line here. While I do like Atwell's idea of teach the practicality of writing, and her idea of "gifts of writing", I find thank you notes to be really insincere, snooty even. I've always preferred direct communication for expressing thanks. I feel phone calls or in person thanksgiving are the way to go.
DeleteAlso, as far as personal practical writing goes. There is probably some bad juju behind it. But I really really enjoy writing eulogies for people that are still alive. I think it helps you focus on why they are important to you now.
I highlighted this line from P. 349 after a student emulated Atwell's condolence letter "Because Elizabeth is learning from me, I'm choosing to see this as an example of intertextuality, not plagiarism." I love this-but I hope no clever student thinks to use it as a comeback. Then again, I'd probably laugh.
DeleteDawson, you only feel that way because you've never read one of Jessica's thank you notes! I do agree that thank you notes can be insincere and rote, but they can also be wonderful.
DeleteComment: I also liked that she focused on other types of writing. It feels so natural for us to teach academic and creative writing, but I think we forget that students have no models really for smaller, day to day writing tasks that they'll have to perform. I believe she mentioned even more types of writing, like personal letters and eulogies, in other chapters. I have to admit, I've had to write all of these, and I wish I had had someone modeling for me. I definitely think this is a technique I'll try this year.
ReplyDeleteThis is so true! How often in real life does anyone write an essay? Why don't we have students do more writing of the types of things people really write on a daily basis?
DeleteWe should brainstorm a list of things people write frequently. I certainly write a lot of requests, directions, thank you's. These are mostly in the form of emails, but they still need to be fairly well written.
DeleteWell, considering the kinds of emails I've gotten from students, I almost wonder if it wouldn't be good for them to really learn how to write online as well! I try telling them that people form opinions about the authors of emails, so they need to be just as well written as the stuff they write in my class, but they never seem to believe me...it makes me worried for when they start applying for jobs!
Delete...on that note. Actual job applications!!
DeleteI've seen so many people come in to the various restaurants I've worked and filled out applications with laughable results. My all-time favorite is the response to the question "What are your weaknesses?" ... "None," is one of the worst possible answers I have ever seen. That immediately tells your employer several things. 1. You are a liar. 2. You ave a big ego. 3. I'm not going to hire you. 4. You think I'm stupid.
I'm fairly certain I may have a minilesson dedicated to filling out job applications that make my students sound awesome and hireable.
Hey, Dawson, I like your idea! Actually contact your DOL, too, and ask them who teaches their application/interview classes-they'd probably be pleased to consult with you!
DeleteI wish the school systems I was educated at did more of that. While I cannot comment much on primary school or middle school, I know that I cannot remember a single time I wrote something "useful." It was all literary analysis and short 5 paragraph essays.
DeleteI did not learn anything about resumes until my 4th year of college for freaking out loud.
Question: Atwell writes, "It's one thing to have success orchestrating the mechanics of writing workshop & the student activity it promotes: it can look impressive as the students draft away & the folders fill up. But it's another to look at who we are to our students & how our activity as writers promotes their engagement, their sense of purpose, & the chance they'll achieve excellence as writers."
ReplyDeleteWith that in mind, how do we teach our students that it's not about quantity, it's about quality of work? Alby has mentioned many times that we need to be doing our work, not for her, but for ourselves.
Also, how do y'all plan on going above & beyond to get your students' attention (& hold it), help them find out who they are as a writer, & then continue to build from what they have learned over time -- all while assessing yourself (as a writer, their teacher, & their model)? I hope that makes sense.
As far as grabbing students' attention, I think humor can work miracles. Even in Atwell's videos she throws in a joke every now and then when it gets too quiet or the students seem to be losing interest. It seems to reel them back in and reengages them.
DeleteAs for your frist question, I think this is a tough one. I think students have been taught for so long that they are doing work for their teachers, that it is confusing when a teacher tells them they are working for themselves. Students are used to due dates and writing to please their teacher's interests. I think the main challenge is to get them to write for themselves. When they do this, they'll begin to care about the piece and want to make it perfect. I think then they will understand that it is better to perfect one piece of writing than write a ton of decent pieces.
Yes, it is the "getting them to write FOR THEMSELVES" that is going to be key. Isn't that the writing you most enjoy? Even if you are writing as a present for someone or for publication, that is still writing for your own purposes.
DeleteI think we should be careful when we say quality over quantity because Atwell herself seems to have afford more of a quality THROUGH quantity approach. The idea seems to be that since we become good at something by doing it often, students will learn to produce quality writing by doing lots of writing.
DeleteAgreed, David. Atwell just wants her students to write constantly, so from quantity of writing, quality will follow.
DeleteQuestion: how often would you guys use the think aloud strategy in an ELA class for maximum effectiveness?
ReplyDeleteI definitely don't think I'd use it every day, because it seems fairly time-consuming. But I do love it and I think it is very beneficial to the students. I think maybe using it for specific pieces of writing that seem to be challenging the students the most would be a good way of incorporating it.
DeleteRemind me to talk about this - think alouds are one of the most useful strategies we have as teachers, but they are SO easy to do badly, and then they just seem boring or patronizing. Wilhelm has a whole book dedicated to the think aloud. I've got some examples of it on the Atwell video too.
DeleteThink about your own experiences. When was a time someone demonstrated something and talked through how they were doing it and you were riveted?
I think one thing would be to think aloud on a subject that the students already like, but we're pushing them to go to either a deeper level or at least unfamiliar territory.
DeleteQuestion: On page 335 of chapter 10, Atwell claims that she wrote a bad memoir about a former second grade student of hers named Laurel. She had certain agendas she was trying to convey but they didn't seem to do the trick for the outside reader wanting a way into the experience. So my question to you guys is: what makes a memoir good? What qualities must it have for an outside reader to enjoy it?
ReplyDeleteComment: So far, I'm on par with Atwell's plan to use mini-lessons in order to teach students how to craft meaningful stories. At the same time though, she is teaching middle school students and I'm not sure if I'd want to continue that process into high school or college. I did have a college professor who used mini-lessons in order for us to grasp screenplay writing but much of the quality of the other students' work remained the same. Which is why I'm considering using a different approach as students grow up.
I think details make a memoir! Smells, sounds, visuals, I think all of these things really grab a reader's attention and keep them plugged in for the entire read.
DeleteYES, Sabrina! I agree. Specific details can go a long way! I personally like when I feel as if I'm there & the words on the page are brought to life. I try to find little pieces that I can relate to that connects me to the author. And, you can do so many memorable lessons to incorporate smells, sounds, & such. The ones that really jump out at the kids will stick with them.
DeleteI'm very interested in the second part of your comment on think alouds. It is hard for me to imagine why they wouldn't work with older students if done well. To this day what often helps me the most is watching someone do something and talking through how they did it. I wonder if there was something about those screenplay think alouds that made them less successful? What would alternatives be?
DeleteComment: I really loved the fact that she went into detail about writing in front of her students. I had imagined, after reading previous chapters and watching the Developing Writers videos, that Atwell took previously written texts and had the students revise them. I had no idea this demonstration teaching was actually Atwell writing, brainstorming and creating, in front of the students. I think this can be so beneficial, especially for students who have trouble getting going or need some tips on how to organize their thoughts!
ReplyDeleteI agree! I think it may not be as important for high school students, but definitely a good thing for middle school kids to watch how you write and use the same techniques. I can see how younger students would feel more comfortable writing if they see their teacher willing to write in front of them!
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DeleteQuestion: I love the fact that Atwell brings in her personal experiences and teaches her students. For example, she used her daughter's birthday as a way to bring her personal life into writing poetry. She also helped students talk about death by incorporating condolence writing into her unit plan. Do you think this is transferrable to high school, as well?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I loved all of the poems and pieces of writing she included that were written by her students. Do you think it would be a good idea at the end of the year to maybe "publish" your own classroom poetry book with each student's writing in it?
I like that Atwell does incorporate so much of her "real life" experiences into her writing & teaching. She is essentially developing a trust with her reader by doing so. In addition, I think many of her ideas can be transferrable to high school with slight modifications & more in-depth lessons in the classroom. If anything, the basis of her ideas are a great place to start, you know? If you've noticed, Alby uses a lot of Atwell's "tricks" by sharing her own writing with us (when we're being 9th or 10th graders) & having us develop/collaborate on how to improve the piece. I liked that Alby had us continue on with her 13th birthday story the other day as a group, then as a smaller group, & then individually. Hearing everyone else's ideas, gives those that may be struggling, a little something to get started. Nice strategy regardless the grade level.
DeleteAnd, i absolutely think that the teacher could publish classroom poetry books with the student's writing. Atwell mentioned in one of the videos that she does that several times a year. I see this as a huge encouragement to her students to see, visible evidence, that their writing is worthy to be published. I also think that they would work harder on developing the things that she's teaching knowing that it's intended to be read by others in the class, other classes, parents, other teachers, etc.
AND the students get coffeehouse days to read their poetry!
DeleteI love that Atwell creates a coffeehouse setting for these tiny poets!! I think that was amazing.
DeleteSabrina, I thought her bringing in her own writing about her personal life was excellent and could definitely be transferred to the high school classroom.
I also like how she asked her students for advice about writing that one poem for her daughter. Not only did she ask for advice from her studens, but she also took that advice and used it. It makes her seem very genuine.
I thought the idea of publishing works even in the classroom was a really good idea. It makes writing meaningful. Students love hearing about the teacher, and so using that to help get them engaged, transcends grade level, I believe.
DeleteI've been to two coffeehouse poetry readings for my oldest 2 boys' fifth grade classes. They invited the parents and had a nice spread, decorations, jazz, the whole shebang. The students LOVED doing it, and they shared some fantastic work! I would think 6th graders would love doing this for parents, too. I wonder if older students would...
DeleteI love the idea of publishing students work in the classroom or holding a coffeehouse poetry reading. It gives students a place to feel proud of what they have accomplished and show off what they have written. Also I believe that it is very possible to transfer condolence writing, or thank you notes, or whatever to the high school level.
DeleteComment: I think Nancie Atwell is a good teacher and I'd like to try to emulate her but honestly, as silly as this sounds, I think I'd feel a bit self conscious about actually doing my writing in front of my students. I'd happily write in class while they were sitting and happily share what I've written, but writing on a projector with an audience gives me the heebie-jeebies for some reason.
ReplyDeleteYou get used to it. But of course you can always put something up that you wrote the previous night.
DeleteI agree. I think it would make me self-conscious or nervous at first. I like Cynthia's solution for putting up something that was written earlier and then maybe easing into the idea of writing in front of them.
DeleteIt makes me nervous as well. But I know that my students will be positively affected by truthful accounts of my experiences.
DeleteQuestion: If you were to model a piece of "bad" writing for your students would you immediately start of with "here's how not to do it" or would you be more subtle about it?
ReplyDeleteThat's a good question. I think it would depend on whether they were middle or high schoolers. Maybe ask "what would make this writing better" instead of "here's how not to do it."
DeleteI would be more subtle about it. I think showing them what could have been improved is a better route. Words are powerful and so I would want to state what could have been improved rather than what was wrong. And then even showing them what didn't work if they don't pick up on it.
DeleteSaying "here's how not to do it" could be really intimidating! I think I would start off by showing the piece and asking students what was wrong, or could be fixed.
DeleteI think I would be more subtle about it, as well. If a student commented on how they liked this or that aspect of the piece, you could say, "what could I have done here to make it even better?"
DeleteI agree, Chelsea! I think asking the question "what could I have done here to make it even better?" really allows the students to feel like they're helping you, while at the same time they are learning.
DeleteThe Gadoe.org website has sample papers of 8th grade expository writing(no narrative), and of course there are good and bad. They even give annotations, but you could have the students give their critique before they see how the papers were rated. This is very impersonal and there's probably one for 11th grade writing test as well.
DeleteOff topic question: Have any of you guys ever tried writing a sestina? It's hard.
ReplyDeleteI actually have in my 2000 level creative writing class. It was extremely difficult
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DeleteOne of the EC mentors tried to teach them last year. They did not go over well. Poor guy had some rough students though.
DeleteI loved Atwell's sestina over everything else she shared in Ch. 10. I have not tried to write one, but I love the wordplay in it. I would think it would be extremely difficult!
DeleteComment: I loved the idea of sharing a flawed version of your work with the class. Besides the fact that it helps to model the techniques you want them to learn, I think it helps to demystify the process of writing and revision for the students. If they see you having trouble with your work, and working through it in a way they can understand, then that will make the process less scary when they face their own mistakes.
ReplyDeleteIt is worlds above the way some go "Here's Jimmy's work. Now find every way he failed at it. Also: Point and laugh." While this might not be a fair portrayal of such a technique, it is an emotionally true one for a ten year old. By including yourself in the spotlight, the students will begin to lose the tension associated with revising and editing with the class.
Absolutely! It alleviates some of the pressure off the students when they realize that we, the teacher, go through the exact same process. We have to look back at our work & see things that need to be changed, crossed out, or what not just like they do. In the end, I think this will get them ready to share their own work with their classmates & not be as intimidated by the revision process.
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DeleteI agree! Even I sometimes think of authors who write multiple novels as a type of magician or wizard of words. It's good for students to see that finished works come from the real, less magical, more muggle writing and revising process.
DeleteI also agree with your point about having the teacher included in the writing process alleviates the stress and fear that may come when students share their work in class.
One thing I'd really like to do after taking this class is pull together a resource that has both drafts and finished products of well known authors. It's so easy to forget how much work all writers have to put into revision, even the famous ones. You're right, students need to see the methods behind the magic more!
DeleteAgreed! I like that Atwell uses her own work to show how it can be improved.
DeleteI agree. I think even in some of the Developing Writers videos they have put the student's work up for revision and just took away the name. I think this is still sort of degrading to the student, because they do know it is theirs. It is discouraging. If we, as teachers, put our work up for revision, I think it sends the message that everyone needs revision and that it isn't a bad thing.
DeleteQuestion: With the flawed draft exercise, how exactly should you guide your students to work on the areas you intended to build on? Students will surprise you, and they will find ways to raise the quality of the work which might only touch on your unit tangentially. While any group discussion is productive and valuable, we are all on a schedule. I do not just want to cut off their revision by telling them to get the 'right answer.'
ReplyDeleteMaybe use warm-up exercises with a page from an author that exemplified the technique? We have seen it often enough in class. Any other methods that come to mind?
I think what you are saying, what if we are trying to focus them on diction but they are focusing on everything BUT diction. One thing that helps is to do a mini-lesson first on diction, and it will definitely make it so they go to that first. Then you can ask them what else needs tweaking. And then you can end up saying, "You know what else I might change...?"
DeleteThe portion of the chapter that talked about collaborative writing really interested me. We have talked about "writing with" students, but writing together is a novel idea. Spending a class period every week or so devoted to writing a piece that the entire class sort of had a say in is kind of cool. If I misinterpreted what Atwell was saying then please call me out on it. It's late and I don't really know what I read just now.
ReplyDeleteRemind me to show you a poem that the poetry club kids wrote together last year. It turned out amazing!
DeleteCollaborative writing does sound very interesting. The specific poem she used about the junk drawer would be a great way to use collaborative writing.
DeleteCynthia, you host a poetry club for high schoolers? That sounds fabulous!
I loved the collaborative writing, as well. I really liked how she even wrote about her personal life, like her daughter's birthday. It seemed to build a connection between teacher and students.
DeleteThe portion of the chapter that talked about collaborative writing really interested me. We have talked about "writing with" students, but writing together is a novel idea. Spending a class period every week or so devoted to writing a piece that the entire class sort of had a say in is kind of cool. If I misinterpreted what Atwell was saying then please call me out on it. It's late and I don't really know what I read just now.
ReplyDeleteComment: There is a lot to like and comment on in chapter ten of Atwell’s book. First of all, I love that students are able to see that writing has worth and can be given as a gift. This idea brings a different perspective of writing than what kids are used to hearing. It tells them that their words are valuable and are able to be treasured and kept forever.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing I love about this chapter is Atwell’s willingness to not only write and share her writing with her students, but also to teach and discuss from her writing. Noting her use of transparencies when writing in front of the class, I couldn’t help but notice Atwell’s own transparency as a teacher (as cheesy as that may sound). I, admittedly, would be a bit nervous to write a story in front of my students, but like Atwell says, “We only have to write a little better than they do for them to take away something from our demonstrations” (p. 368).
I also love what she says at the very end of this chapter: “When we, as English teachers, demonstrate the uses of writing in our lives, we answer the most important question of all about writing: Why would anyone want to write? (p. 369). I’m thinking about creating a Word document that contains a slew of possible answers to the question that students are bound to ask: “When are we ever going to use this stuff?”
It is clear from reading and class that Creative Writing has its place in our curriculum. How much of a place should it have though? Should every unit have a creative writing component, or should there be a whole unit devoted to the subject?
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of incorporating all types of writing into thematically bound units. After all, in the real world we use all modes of discourse all the time. I feel like students need to practice understanding what kind of writing they need when given a task, and the best way to do that is to keep the genres mixed.
DeleteThe unit focus I'm working on in class is about how things like word choice are influenced by author's intent. This is relevant to both creative works and nonfiction, so I would want to have both be a part of the unit.
DeleteI feel like it is part of the whole-ELA-she-bang! The trick is finding a balance. Teaching a little of both of using one to help teach the other. You could spend an entire unit of just learning how to write, but then the student has nothing to connect it to. Seeing them side by side, I think, should be extra helpful.
DeleteTruth be told, this emphasis on creative writing, with narrative writing in particular, was one of the hardest concepts for me to accept when I entered this program. The idea that the teacher would ask *ME* what I was feeling or thought about something (other than a contrived 5 paragraph essay like) seemed completely alien to me.
DeleteWhich might explain why I was so unprepared when I originally went into the creative writing program.
I actually really enjoyed Atwell's sample lesson over "gifts of writing" I think it provides a very practical use for the students' work that may need to be able to see the everyday importance of having well-developed writing skills. One other thing I thought was very interesting was her idea of doing some of her writing in real time on the projector in front of her students. I thought this was a great idea! I think it would be very important for the students to see someone else's writing process, that it is never perfect the first time, that it is okay scratch out and add in and do over. I think it provides a comfort knowing that even the teacher, who has been writing for years and years, still has a very messy first draft.
ReplyDeleteWhen Nancy talks about having her students write poems based off of the videos of Shakespeare plays they had watched, she mentioned one student, Curt, who was entirely unable to write one and came back to school with nothing. I have had many teachers that, regardless of my understanding, would rain down with discipline on any student who didn't do their homework. Which in some case makes sense; I can't teach you if you didn't do the prerequisite. So is there a difference between "didn't" and "couldn't do my homework?" How do we tell the difference? How do we handle it when a student can't figure something out because we didn't explain it in a way that worked for them individually?
ReplyDeleteI think there is a difference between "didn't" and "couldn't" do the homework, but I think you would have a hard time using "discipline" with one and not the other. I think grading-wise, we'll need to handle every situation where a student doesn't have their homework the same way. I think we should treat it like they couldn't do it, because even if they didn't attempt, I think it is often because they were already discouraged because they didn't "get it." In this scenario, I think it would be a good idea to teach the student in a new way, from a new perspective.
DeleteOy, that is a tricky one. For subjects like math, I would tell the students, you must try, because then you come back the next day at least being able to tell the teacher what you don't understand. Especially if you have problems on paper, you can rework or practice them once you've had that second day to pay closer attention to what you know from your homework experience you did not understand. I think the same thing could apply to many types of ELA assignments. Sometimes there is that writer's block or the brother's ballgame that goes into extra innings til late-then a precious homework pass (possibly earned earlier) is handy!
DeleteGoing off of Felicia's comment: How often did you have any teacher that accepted your prewriting at the deadline. It always seemed "finish or get a F." And because the drafts were rarely really valued, I never personally got a sense of their value. We need to dispel this kind o thinking if we are going to improve the system.
DeleteAmen, Lee! The drafts, to me, deserve the most thorough attention because the students will be expected to take that, learn and apply, then improve! I have been with an 8th grade teacher (and a lot is on the line that year) with >30 years of experience, and she was very good at giving them at least 3 steps where they revised from comments (timely feedback on her part) and peer activities, too. But I certainly have been with others, too where I'm sure the students felt a little abandoned.
DeleteQuestion: I really liked the idea that Atwell uses of "writing badly on purpose" so that she won't have to share a student's work with the class when she wants to prove a point. Do you guys think this is effective or would it be more effective and personal to share an example of the student's flawed work?
ReplyDeleteIf I were to ever show a student created work as an example of something that needs improving I would make sure to do one of two things first. I would either talk with the student beforehand to make sure they are comfortable with it, or I would use a piece from a pervious year's class, so the student in question won't be in the classroom and will be able to remain anonymous.
DeleteI think someone already commented on the idea of giving gifts as writing, but I love the practice and idea so I am going to comment again. I think that writing thank you notes, poems to your mom, or any other sort of writing that goes with gift giving is becoming less and less apart of our society. Atwell's teaching of it gives students skill they will need in the future and adds a personal tie that the students can relate to.
ReplyDeleteComment: This was my favorite quote, "Student memoirists should be discovering and describing their own reactions and reflections, just as they should work at ascribing thoughts and feelings to main characters in their fiction" (p. 335). This quote is so important because it pretty much sums up Atwell's teaching style: that writing and reading skills influence and assist the other.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Atwell's teaching style is grounded in "modeling." For instance, instead of demanding her students take "better notes," she asks them to comment on her own notes about a film or book, and therein the kids discover what good note-taking means. Was this the way you were taught in middle school?
ReplyDeleteI had this discussion with someone after reading this chapter as well. He said that his teachers in high school taught them at the beginning of class how they wanted their notes to look. I was never "taught" note-taking, and I think it is a skill that everyone does need to learn, or at least need to hear tips on.
DeleteI had a class my freshman year (pre-calc of all things) where my professor strictly forbid that anyone have anything on there desks. He just wanted you to come in, sit down, and watch him intently. He said that as soon as you start taking notes, you are more occupied by copying and keeping up than you are by actually paying attention and considering what he was saying. The kicker is he would record his classes and all of the work he did on his computer (which was all of it) and then print out discs of the class afterward for everyone to have. The costs of the discs were included in the course, so it isn't really feasible for high or middle schools, but I still like the concept.
DeleteI didn't catch that about the note taking. What a great idea! It's funny how many students, even in high school, are only comfortable copying notes word for word.
ReplyDeleteI am inspired by her use of parallel structure for the first poem (p. 341) she shared-I might try that in my memoir somehow. I need to get the idea down before I lose it. Have any of y'all used that to good effect? I also liked the conclusion of her lesson for Leah's story, because the students had seen Atwell struggle so intimately with the conclusion-what Leah's mom would say. I think one reason Atwell is so successful and such a great teacher is because of "WE". She said, "We added this technique to the classroom repertoire of things writers might try..."
ReplyDeleteOn a final note, I am curious about Cat's Eye by Margaret Atwood-has anyone read it?